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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 22%  22%  [ 19 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 85
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:41 pm 
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As per title.

You are allowed to change your vote.




I don't know myself - it's touch and go. He's almost definitely top 15 though.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:55 pm 
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I think he was extremelly good at certain stages of his Red Bull career and quite possibly as good or better as Hamilton is now. I think some people are judging his recent form to mean he has never been that good if I'm honest. At his best, I think he's been as good as Hamilton is at his best. But Hamilton has done this more often. But it could well be the case that sometime Hamilton has a drop off like Vettel. Should that mean that he's never been that good? Vettel doesn't have 4 titles for no reason and I don't think the car he had those 4 years was anywhere near as dominant as the 2014 - 2016 Mercedes most of the time.

I don't know enough about the past to vote on this poll though really. But I think vettel has been one of the very best drivers, but is probably past it now.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:06 pm 
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It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:10 pm 
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No.
Clearly not.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:12 pm 
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Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:14 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:23 pm 
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No, I wouldn't put him in the top ten. Top twenty, yes; I might consider top fifteen. But not ten.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:33 pm 
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I voted yes as I worked out my top 10 and he fell somewhere between 8-10 assuming he retired today but there was a driver I forgot about so actually that would be 9-11. So he's on the cusp for me.

I had high hopes after '15 but since then he hasn't been able to put in that kind of performance for whatever reason. Maybe becoming a father took his eye off the ball, maybe the environment at Ferrari just doesn't suit him. Who knows, but had he retired after 2015 he definitely would be in my top 10 and since then he's just gone downhill. Hopefully he can either turn it around or call it a day soon, or he probably wont make my top 10.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:46 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:48 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


Some interesting calls there - especially regarding some contemporaries such as Rosberg, Ricciardo and Verstappen already being greater.

It is true that Rosberg gave Hamilton a much fiercer fight in the end than Vettel was able to muster in 2017-2018, even though in 2018 Vettel probably had the better car. I take it this forms your main evidence?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 9:59 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


Some interesting calls there - especially regarding some contemporaries such as Rosberg, Ricciardo and Verstappen already being greater.

It is true that Rosberg gave Hamilton a much fiercer fight in the end than Vettel was able to muster in 2017-2018, even though in 2018 Vettel probably had the better car. I take it this forms your main evidence?


Well, "greater" for me means better as a driver (including on-track sportsmanship) - nothing about impact, music taste :lol: , etc.
Rosberg has beaten Schumacher in 3 out of 3 years, for the most time in dominant fashion, and he gave Hamilton a hard time. I don't think he would have struggled to establish dominance against Räikkönen like Vettel did too often. I think many underestimate him. And Ricciardo obviously beat Vettel when they were teammates.
Do you doubt that Verstappen would beat Vettel when they would be teammates?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


Some interesting calls there - especially regarding some contemporaries such as Rosberg, Ricciardo and Verstappen already being greater.

It is true that Rosberg gave Hamilton a much fiercer fight in the end than Vettel was able to muster in 2017-2018, even though in 2018 Vettel probably had the better car. I take it this forms your main evidence?


Well, "greater" for me means better as a driver (including on-track sportsmanship) - nothing about impact, music taste :lol: , etc.
Rosberg has beaten Schumacher in 3 out of 3 years, for the most time in dominant fashion, and he gave Hamilton a hard time. I don't think he would have struggled to establish dominance against Räikkönen like Vettel did too often. And Ricciardo obviously beat Vettel when they were teammates.
Do you doubt that Verstappen would beat Vettel when they would be teammates?


I am almost certain Verstappen would win. I also expect he'll go down as one of the very greatest even at this very early stage and in a sport where the car is so utterly vital to Championship success. He's the sort of driver I can imagine winning several WDCs in the future without the best car. With Vettel I'm at the stage where I believe he needs a dominant car to even have a chance at then dealing with either Hamilton or Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:38 pm 
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It is funny that Max's name is being taken for an all-time list of any kind at this point in his career.
He is a boy wonder, so were many others including Vettel himself at the beginning of their career. I wouldn't put any modern driver on any list before they complete 8-10 seasons in F1 or win at least 1 championship.

Thing is, I would also not judge any current driver even comparing them to their peers from their eras only to the older ones. The sport is not the same, neither is driver mentality and the risks they take are not the same. This is the era of safer F1. I would keep past drivers from last century in their own league.

In the modern era, that is from 2001 onwards, Vettel is easily top 5 alongside Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso and Rosberg.

Kimi, Mika, Button, Massa and Rubens will complete my top 10.

I will not put Max or Ricciardo on this list just yet but I see Max easily beating out bottom 5 on that list in coming years. There is a big question mark on Ricciardo at the moment after his Renault move. I am worried he will end up being another Heidfeld or Hulkenberg.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:47 pm 
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It's a difficult question because you first have to define what makes someone an all-time great. Everyone has their own definition for that.

I'll say this; in terms of results, you cannot name 10 drivers who accomplished more than Sebastian Vettel in F1. There are some valid criticisms of Vettel and he is far from perfect but I don't have a problem with him being on a top 10 list. Now top 5 I would have to take issue with.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:14 am 
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No. At one time I thought he was working is way up the list, but not now. Only Alonso among current/recent would push for a spot in my Top Ten, though Lewis is getting closer.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:04 am 
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So I guess the way to do this is to look at the top drivers who have retired from the sport for more than one year and then see how the contemporary drivers stack up against them.


So in no particular order:

Schumacher
Fangio
Prost
Senna
Clark
Lauda

Are the six that come straight to mind.

I would rank these six as the most legendary drivers in the sports history when you look at a combination of their talent, success, impact and legacy.

While we can assess modern drivers on the first two categories, it's difficult on the last two. Hamilton and Vettel have certainly had an impact, being the template for drivers from young driver programs coming into the sport, but we won't know the full extent until long after they have retired, likewise with their legacy.

While it's possible and likely at least one contemporary driver will join that list of six in the future, it's impossible to say for sure now. Hamilton is the most likely given his success and his records, but it's still not a certainty.

But there are still more slots available in this top ten, so let's start looking at more names.

Jackie Stewart, Stirling Moss, Ascari. I think these also are solid contenders for the top 10. This leaves us with one slot left.

We have Hamilton, Alonso, and Vettel from the contemporary drivers. While in 2013, many would have considered it possible Vettel would be top of that trio, I think the subsequent five years have led most people to put Vettel bottom, and certainly not top of that list. Which means that if a contemporary driver is worthy of taking the final slot in the top 10, it isn't Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:34 am 
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ATH, I made this argument elsewhere but I think F1 has a cut off or change point at around the time when Stewart implemented the safety improvements.
Ascari, Fangio, Clark and Moss drove in an era where death was just around the corner and in cars that were a real handful to control. In my view they were 'real men' with a different set of skills and even a different definition of greatness.
Vettel has to be included with the contemporary drivers as a great, though Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda would rise above him in my view.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:42 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
ATH, I made this argument elsewhere but I think F1 has a cut off or change point at around the time when Stewart implemented the safety improvements.
Ascari, Fangio, Clark and Moss drove in an era where death was just around the corner and in cars that were a real handful to control. In my view they were 'real men' with a different set of skills and even a different definition of greatness.
Vettel has to be included with the contemporary drivers as a great, though Senna, Schumacher, Prost, Lauda would rise above him in my view.

I personally think Lauda is the driver that shifted what it meant to be an F1 driver as he was the first of the mould that refined itself through Prost then Senna then Schumacher. However, this thread is about the top ten of all time, if we are doing just drivers since 1975, then I guess it should be about a top 6 so it's evenly distributed. As four of my driver's were before Lauda, I guess my list works with both.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:27 am 
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Interesting. Have a scout around the web for all the Top 10 lists that are scattered around and see how often Vettel comes up on it. His record suggest he should be, but I've a feeling that as time goes on, he'll appear less and less on the more subjectively created lists.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:44 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
No.
Clearly not.


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


Some interesting calls there - especially regarding some contemporaries such as Rosberg, Ricciardo and Verstappen already being greater.

It is true that Rosberg gave Hamilton a much fiercer fight in the end than Vettel was able to muster in 2017-2018, even though in 2018 Vettel probably had the better car. I take it this forms your main evidence?


Well, "greater" for me means better as a driver (including on-track sportsmanship) - nothing about impact, music taste :lol: , etc.
Rosberg has beaten Schumacher in 3 out of 3 years, for the most time in dominant fashion, and he gave Hamilton a hard time. I don't think he would have struggled to establish dominance against Räikkönen like Vettel did too often. I think many underestimate him. And Ricciardo obviously beat Vettel when they were teammates.
Do you doubt that Verstappen would beat Vettel when they would be teammates?
I'm a bit surprised that you include on-track sportsmanship in your requirements (I couldn't agree more), but Schumacher is in your list. Could you explain how you see this?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:59 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Invade wrote:


Would you say he's in the top-20?


Let me see, out of my head:
Fangio, Ascari, Moss, Brabham, Clark, Stewart, Ickx, Rindt, Peterson, Lauda, Andretti, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Bellof, Schumacher, Häkkinen, Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Ricciardo, Verstappen ...
... and I certainly forgot a couple. So, no.


Some interesting calls there - especially regarding some contemporaries such as Rosberg, Ricciardo and Verstappen already being greater.

It is true that Rosberg gave Hamilton a much fiercer fight in the end than Vettel was able to muster in 2017-2018, even though in 2018 Vettel probably had the better car. I take it this forms your main evidence?


Well, "greater" for me means better as a driver (including on-track sportsmanship) - nothing about impact, music taste :lol: , etc.
Rosberg has beaten Schumacher in 3 out of 3 years, for the most time in dominant fashion, and he gave Hamilton a hard time. I don't think he would have struggled to establish dominance against Räikkönen like Vettel did too often. I think many underestimate him. And Ricciardo obviously beat Vettel when they were teammates.
Do you doubt that Verstappen would beat Vettel when they would be teammates?
I'm a bit surprised that you include on-track sportsmanship in your requirements (I couldn't agree more), but Schumacher is in your list. Could you explain how you see this?


Yes.
Both Schumacher and Senna were such superiour driving talents that they rank above Vettel IMO - especially since Vettel has demonstrated his own lack of on-track sportsmanship himself (Baku).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:09 am 
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I probably do not rate him in my personal top 10, but Vettel is in danger of being seriously under rated.

He may never scale the heights again, and looks like a guy out of love with the sport. However I still think if given the right enviroment Vettel will still do it. A confident Vettel in a car he likes, with team support is still formidable.

Comparing to the 2 other ATGs of this era

Vettel probably was quicker than Alonso but lacks the completeness that Alonso had as a driver. No shame in that, almost every driver in history does.

Vettel might even be slightly faster than Hamilton, but again lacks a degree of completeness and natural speed Hamilton has. By that I mean Hamilton is faster over a wider range, but Vettel might be slightly faster given ideal equipment. Again no shame in that, almost everyone does.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:10 am 
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1. Schumacher
2. Fangio
3. Senna
4. Clark
5. Prost
6. Alonso
7. Stewart
8. Hamilton
9. Ascari
10. Lauda
11. Moss
12. Piquet
13. Surtees
14. Vettel

So top 15 yes, top 10 know. After 2013 He probably would've been solidly in my top 10 but he's dropped down since then.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:13 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
It is funny that Max's name is being taken for an all-time list of any kind at this point in his career.
He is a boy wonder, so were many others including Vettel himself at the beginning of their career. I wouldn't put any modern driver on any list before they complete 8-10 seasons in F1 or win at least 1 championship.

Thing is, I would also not judge any current driver even comparing them to their peers from their eras only to the older ones. The sport is not the same, neither is driver mentality and the risks they take are not the same. This is the era of safer F1. I would keep past drivers from last century in their own league.

In the modern era, that is from 2001 onwards, Vettel is easily top 5 alongside Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso and Rosberg.

Kimi, Mika, Button, Massa and Rubens will complete my top 10.

I will not put Max or Ricciardo on this list just yet but I see Max easily beating out bottom 5 on that list in coming years. There is a big question mark on Ricciardo at the moment after his Renault move. I am worried he will end up being another Heidfeld or Hulkenberg.


Since 2001. That's an interesting question -

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Schumacher
4. Vettel
5. Raikkonen
6. Button
7. Verstappen
8. Ricciardo
9. Montoya
10. Barrichello

Just based on what they did post 2000.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:

He may never scale the heights again, and looks like a guy out of love with the sport. However I still think if given the right enviroment Vettel will still do it. A confident Vettel in a car he likes, with team support is still formidable.



That sounds like Massa in my ears.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


Yeah good call. Like I said, it was a quick run off the top of the head while on the train this morning. Not a whole deal of analysis in my thinking.
I can still swap out Hakkinen with Ascari, Moss or Brabham, Mario Andretti and he’s still not in my top 10


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:12 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I was thinking exactly the same thing. As much as I love Mika and his driving, top 10 would be pushing it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:35 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I think he was extremelly good at certain stages of his Red Bull career and quite possibly as good or better as Hamilton is now. I think some people are judging his recent form to mean he has never been that good if I'm honest. At his best, I think he's been as good as Hamilton is at his best. But Hamilton has done this more often. But it could well be the case that sometime Hamilton has a drop off like Vettel. Should that mean that he's never been that good? Vettel doesn't have 4 titles for no reason and I don't think the car he had those 4 years was anywhere near as dominant as the 2014 - 2016 Mercedes most of the time.

I don't know enough about the past to vote on this poll though really. But I think vettel has been one of the very best drivers, but is probably past it now.


What does it matter how dominant the car is?

Its debatable what is a better scenario.
1- Having a car 0.4-0.8 quicker than the field but a 29-32 year old Nico Rosberg as your team mate

2- Havign a car 0.3-0.5 quicker than the field but 34-37 year old Mark Webber as your team mate.

Once the car is about 0.3 quicker than the field, all that matter is who is your team mate. Alain Prost drove the most dominant car in the sports history, BUT had peak Senna as his team mate.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:47 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
It is funny that Max's name is being taken for an all-time list of any kind at this point in his career.
He is a boy wonder, so were many others including Vettel himself at the beginning of their career. I wouldn't put any modern driver on any list before they complete 8-10 seasons in F1 or win at least 1 championship.

Thing is, I would also not judge any current driver even comparing them to their peers from their eras only to the older ones. The sport is not the same, neither is driver mentality and the risks they take are not the same. This is the era of safer F1. I would keep past drivers from last century in their own league.

In the modern era, that is from 2001 onwards, Vettel is easily top 5 alongside Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso and Rosberg.

Kimi, Mika, Button, Massa and Rubens will complete my top 10.

I will not put Max or Ricciardo on this list just yet but I see Max easily beating out bottom 5 on that list in coming years. There is a big question mark on Ricciardo at the moment after his Renault move. I am worried he will end up being another Heidfeld or Hulkenberg.


Ricciardo is in his 9th season and you are still waiting to make a judgement? He already has the same race starts as Senna and Hakkinen.

Heidfeld or Hulkenberg didn't even win a race, Hulkenberg hasn't even had a podium. Ricciardo has 29 podiums, 7 wins, has beaten a 4x world champion fair and square over a season and been quicker than every team mate he has ever had, baring Max Verstappen. There is no comparison. Massa holds the record for most defeats to a team mate in F1 history, 12 seasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:49 am 
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I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:56 am 
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He is holding a number of 'youngest' records in Formula One, he holds the record for the most consecutive race wins (9), as well as accumulating the third most race victories (52) and podium finishes (117), and the fourth-most pole positions (56). Not bad for someone who is not considered to be top 10.

But I am not a fan of all time greats lists, 'cause it will do much injustice to eras we know less. IMHO we can measure him only against his own generation, but first with team mates.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:02 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
He is holding a number of 'youngest' records in Formula One, he holds the record for the most consecutive race wins (9), as well as accumulating the third most race victories (52) and podium finishes (117), and the fourth-most pole positions (56). Not bad for someone who is not considered to be top 10.

But I am not a fan of all time greats lists, 'cause it will do much injustice to eras we know less. IMHO we can measure him only against his own generation, but first with team mates.

Yeah as a balance of results and how you may be perceived that might squeeze him into the top 10.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:03 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

Tell that one to Stirling Moss.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:05 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.


Ok, I get the argument now, not sure it is right but I see where you are coming from.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:17 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.


Ok, I get the argument now, not sure it is right but I see where you are coming from.

Yeah if it's simply down to titles then the list becomes really easy to make.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:20 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't have top 10 lists as such but I just thought looking at the present day drivers I would have Vettel as 5th best behind drivers like Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso and Ricciardo, then you have the drivers from the past like Fangio, Ascari, Clark, Stewart, Senna, Prost and Schumacher, so probably not but I guess more like top 15.

I guess it's how much you look to rate titles as well, Vettel is the 4th most successful driver in the history of F1 so that might put more weighting towards him being top 10, two drivers I list above him don't even have a title as of yet.


Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.



*shrugs*

He got beat three years on the bounce. His age and hiatus is used as too much of a convenient excuse. The whole dynamic of F1 was changing. Also it's probably indicative of Rosberg being better than most of us appreciate.


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