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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Irrevelant subthread removed by mod.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.


Thanks for your input dude :thumbup:

Glad I could contribute :thumbup:
Happy converting.


I don't think many need converting as you put it, things are looking bleak for vettel in his equivalent thread tho you better get back to it

Oh I see you're over there as well, big surprise. Seems your arguments have been debunked by several members already so I don't really need to get back to it at the moment but thanks for your concern :thumbup:

To the rest: Sorry for the OT.


Nobody debunked nothing because all i posted a straight up fact which seemingly got you all nice and irritated. Funnily enough I do post across multiple threads unfortunately


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:10 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

You're being a bit ridiculous now, the Mercedes was dog slow in Austria, the best that Hamilton could hope for was third place and even that was because Vettel's faster Ferrari failed in qualifying and he was playing catch up.

Also Hamilton didn't make a mistake in qualifying, he qualified second behind the faster Ferrari, what actually happened is that he got a grid penalty for blocking Kimi in Q1.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:12 pm 
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Irrelevant discussion thread removed by mod.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


He's ignored this every time just as he ignores everyone else pointing out Monaco and just like he ignores the fact that Verstappen was dropped out in Q2 at Canada and spun in Germany, if it doesn't suit his agenda he ignores it so there's no point debating. He will not change his mind. Verstappen could DNF in every race for the rest of the season and he'd still give him driver of the season

In Monaco, the Red Bull pit crew released Verstappen right into the path of Bottas on the narrowest pitlane on the calendar. That’s a team mistake, not a driver mistake.

In Canada, Verstappen was extremely unlucky with the red flag in Q2, and P5 was the best Verstappen could achieve anyway as Merc and Ferrari were just plain better.

Verstappen won in Germany, so his spin was irrelevant. Also, it was idiotic for Red Bull to put him on mediums in those conditions.

No Verstappen deliberately squeezed Bottas towards the pit wall whilst all the time looking in his mirror until contact was made, that's a view given by Vettel.

In Germany it was even more idiotic for James Vowles to change Hamilton from wets to slicks at a time when it started raining, at the same time other drivers were changing from slicks to wets, one being Verstappen after he had just spun.

I won't go into what James Vowles did later which put the final nail in the coffin of Hamilton's race.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.

It's a Hamilton thread, am I missing something?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Let's keep this on topic, and relevant.

Calling out forum members of this forum as being fanboys or haters is not allowed, so bringing up members of forums other than this and then discussing them in a similar manner is certainly against the rules. Not only is it potentially slanderous, but they don't even have the opportunity to respond to any criticism levelled at them.

It's also hardly relevant to this thread. It's akin to saying 'there is this I know guy down the pub, he's a big Ricciardo fan and he thinks Hamilton is the best driver this season' - if it's a seasoned F1 journalist or a team principal, then it has relevance. But a random internet user, whose credentials are unknown, isn't.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:21 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Hamilton’s mistake in Austria was more costly than you make it sound. He was on the same winning strategy as Verstappen and 7 seconds further up the road. He ended up 5th because of that mistake and threw away at least a podium even if you account for Mercedes’ issues there. Likewise, Lewis started lower down in Austria because he made a mistake in qualifying. His overall weekend in Austria was a write-off, not as bad as Germany but still bad.

Regarding Germany, that’s the name of the game. In 2018, both Vettel and Hamilton went off only once. Hamilton at turn 6, Vettel at turn 12. Does this mean that Lewis wasn’t actually better than Seb that race, but just luckier that his mistake occurred in a corner with tarmac and not gravel?

Apples and oranges as usual. Hamilton and Verstappen (and several other drivers) all spun at the same spot in Germany; which suggests that it was not really driver error but just a spot on the track that caused aquaplaning. When that happens, you become a passenger. In Germany 2018 Vettel made an error at the one part of the circuit where you cannot afford to go off. There's a big difference between that and running a bit wide at turn 6 (the safest place on the track to run wide).

You want to make a mountain out of Hamilton's errors because you want to prop up Max. For me though, driver of the year isn't just about minimizing mistakes. Neither Hamilton nor Verstappen have made many mistakes this year so I don't think that's the determining factor. It's going to come down to who has the highest highs; not who has the lowest lows.


He's ignored this every time just as he ignores everyone else pointing out Monaco and just like he ignores the fact that Verstappen was dropped out in Q2 at Canada and spun in Germany, if it doesn't suit his agenda he ignores it so there's no point debating. He will not change his mind. Verstappen could DNF in every race for the rest of the season and he'd still give him driver of the season

What he wants is to get the forum to accept a way of reasoning in which Lewis can end the season with 12-14 wins and win the WDC by 150 points and we should all look at that like it's no big deal because he had to get a nose change in Austria. I'm just not going along with that.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:52 pm 
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The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.

It's a Hamilton thread, am I missing something?



Yes, poker, you are missing something. The title of the thread does not rule out someone resisting the claim of others that Lewis is an all-time great, or even feeling that he isn't the best. As Hamilton was listed in the title question, remember that it is a question. You cannot expect everyone to agree that he is at this point of his career. The majority of posters in this thread have stated that Hamilton is an all-time great, that isn't enough? i suspect that even Lewis Hamilton forums have occasional posts that don't place him on as high a pedestal as the others, it is only natural... unless such posts are banned?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
Let's keep this on topic, and relevant.

Calling out forum members of this forum as being fanboys or haters is not allowed, so bringing up members of forums other than this and then discussing them in a similar manner is certainly against the rules. Not only is it potentially slanderous, but they don't even have the opportunity to respond to any criticism levelled at them.

It's also hardly relevant to this thread. It's akin to saying 'there is this I know guy down the pub, he's a big Ricciardo fan and he thinks Hamilton is the best driver this season' - if it's a seasoned F1 journalist or a team principal, then it has relevance. But a random internet user, whose credentials are unknown, isn't.


Thank You!!! :nod:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.

I would add Singapore 2016, regardless of whether Hamilton missed FP2 or not. That imo is too much of an excuse.

Spain 2015. Abu Dhabi 2015.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg looked quicker when they were both on the same tyres (first stint).

In 2013, Rosberg was quicker in Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Singapore, India, Abu Dhabi.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:39 pm 
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By definition there will always be a number of all time greats, and I think by now, Lewis qualifies. His first two seasons were very good, but I think had he not won another title after that, then he wouldn’t have made the list. Sebastian very quickly broke the record of being the youngest driver to win the WDC, if only by 6 months, a record which might be seen as one way to define an all time great. That meant Lewis was left with the arguably more obscure and lesser record of being youngest driver to lead it.

For me, it’s now a question of how much of a great he can go on to be remembered as. If he breaks Schumacher’s records then it will be very hard to argue that he isn’t an all time great, even for those that perhaps aren’t keen on him. If I’m correct then he is the multiple WDC winner with the longest gap between his first and second titles, so I can see that counting against him in such a debate in years to come.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:48 pm 
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As far as I'm concerned, to be considered an all time great he at least needs to put out an album that wins a Grammy album of the year award, and to win a season of Ex on the Beach. Anything less and he'll just be a very successful Formula 1 driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:24 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.

I would add Singapore 2016, regardless of whether Hamilton missed FP2 or not. That imo is too much of an excuse.

Spain 2015. Abu Dhabi 2015.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg looked quicker when they were both on the same tyres (first stint).

In 2013, Rosberg was quicker in Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Singapore, India, Abu Dhabi.


Bahrain 2014, Rosberg was using engine modes he wasn’t meant to. He used these when attempting to overtake. Maybe he was quicker but Hamilton had an awesome pace and built a 10 second lead when they ran alternative tyres in the the middle stint. In retaliation, Hamiton himself used engine modes he wasn’t meant to in the very next race, Spain 2014 - that is why I added Spain 2014 to my list above as a maybe. Mercedes then clamped down on both drives and enforced strict engine mode rules.

Singapore 2016 a definite no for me, he missed FP2 and FP3. ALL night time running. He did FP1 in daylight, that is considered the most useless practise session of the season as it useless for the race and qualifying that occur at night with entirely different track temperatures. He went into qualifying with one single actual lap in race/quali conditions.

FP2
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

FP3
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton is great, but he can’t beat Nico Rosberg with zero running going into qualifying. He did well to actually match him in 2 of the 3 sectors. Rosberg smashed him in the other.

Spain 2015, he dropped to 3rd and got caught in traffic for the first 2/3’s of the race unable to overtake Vettel. There is no direct comparison. Hamilton had to 3 stop to pass Vettel, Rosberg 2 stopped. By the time he was past he was 30 seconds behind Rosberg. That is not a direct race pace comparison.

AD 2015 I don’t think. Hamilton begged for an alternative strategy, they gave it to him and it was slower.

Just look at Laps 12-30, Hamilton closes down a 6 second gap to 1 second. That is not a quicker Rosberg. He was quicker for only the short SS stint, once the softs went on (70% of the race) Hamilton had more speed. Hamilton goes super long on the tyres in an attempt to win but it didn’t work.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

2013, I don’t remember so well so I will take your word.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:59 am 
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Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.

I would add Singapore 2016, regardless of whether Hamilton missed FP2 or not. That imo is too much of an excuse.

Spain 2015. Abu Dhabi 2015.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg looked quicker when they were both on the same tyres (first stint).

In 2013, Rosberg was quicker in Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Singapore, India, Abu Dhabi.


Bahrain 2014, Rosberg was using engine modes he wasn’t meant to. He used these when attempting to overtake. Maybe he was quicker but Hamilton had an awesome pace and built a 10 second lead when they ran alternative tyres in the the middle stint. In retaliation, Hamiton himself used engine modes he wasn’t meant to in the very next race, Spain 2014 - that is why I added Spain 2014 to my list above as a maybe. Mercedes then clamped down on both drives and enforced strict engine mode rules.

Singapore 2016 a definite no for me, he missed FP2 and FP3. ALL night time running. He did FP1 in daylight, that is considered the most useless practise session of the season as it useless for the race and qualifying that occur at night with entirely different track temperatures. He went into qualifying with one single actual lap in race/quali conditions.

FP2
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

FP3
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton is great, but he can’t beat Nico Rosberg with zero running going into qualifying. He did well to actually match him in 2 of the 3 sectors. Rosberg smashed him in the other.

Spain 2015, he dropped to 3rd and got caught in traffic for the first 2/3’s of the race unable to overtake Vettel. There is no direct comparison. Hamilton had to 3 stop to pass Vettel, Rosberg 2 stopped. By the time he was past he was 30 seconds behind Rosberg. That is not a direct race pace comparison.

AD 2015 I don’t think. Hamilton begged for an alternative strategy, they gave it to him and it was slower.

Just look at Laps 12-30, Hamilton closes down a 6 second gap to 1 second. That is not a quicker Rosberg. He was quicker for only the short SS stint, once the softs went on (70% of the race) Hamilton had more speed. Hamilton goes super long on the tyres in an attempt to win but it didn’t work.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

2013, I don’t remember so well so I will take your word.

I feel like you’re giving Hamilton too much leeway here. With this much leeway, you could make the argument that Verstappen hasn’t been outpaced since the beginning of the 2017 high downforce cars.

Regarding Bahrain 2014 - Hamilton did not build a 10 second lead in the middle stint. He build a 4 second lead, the other 6 seconds came from the very powerful undercut. Now 4 seconds in 20 laps on the better tyres doesn’t sound as impressive.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:04 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.

I would add Singapore 2016, regardless of whether Hamilton missed FP2 or not. That imo is too much of an excuse.

Spain 2015. Abu Dhabi 2015.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg looked quicker when they were both on the same tyres (first stint).

In 2013, Rosberg was quicker in Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Singapore, India, Abu Dhabi.


Rosberg wasn't faster in Malaysia 2013: Brawn tasked Lewis with hounding the Red Bulls and by the end of the race he was having to fuel save too much. Rosberg, courtesy of losing in Quali, was given a more conservative strategy, where he still had more in the tank by the end. Basically it was a variant of what happened between Dan and Nico in Canada this year.

Anyway, the thrust of Johnson's post is solid. Nico and Lewis were together for 4 seasons and we're struggling to name a half a season's worth of races over that entire period of time in which Nico was faster. Alonso hung the most legitimate deficits on him and he is probably top 5 in race pace for grand prix drivers in history.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:45 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
Rosberg wasn't faster in Malaysia 2013: Brawn tasked Lewis with hounding the Red Bulls and by the end of the race he was having to fuel save too much. Rosberg, courtesy of losing in Quali, was given a more conservative strategy, where he still had more in the tank by the end. Basically it was a variant of what happened between Dan and Nico in Canada this year.

Then why did Lewis say afterwards that Nico deserved to beat him? If it was all down to strategy I don't think he'd have said that.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:13 am 
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Kingvoid - I'm amazed by the sheer amount of time you have spent over the years searching the internet for things to nitpick at regarding Lewis Hamilton. Must be exhausting.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:38 am 
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Exediron wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Rosberg wasn't faster in Malaysia 2013: Brawn tasked Lewis with hounding the Red Bulls and by the end of the race he was having to fuel save too much. Rosberg, courtesy of losing in Quali, was given a more conservative strategy, where he still had more in the tank by the end. Basically it was a variant of what happened between Dan and Nico in Canada this year.

Then why did Lewis say afterwards that Nico deserved to beat him? If it was all down to strategy I don't think he'd have said that.


He said that because he can be overly charitable at times. He said Bottas deserved to win in Baku in 2018 and Bottas deserved to win there about as much as Vettel deserved to win in Australia that same year. Go figure! If someone can provide a counter-interpretation of the Malaysia race's proceedings (as they stand) be my guest...


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:48 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
He said that because he can be overly charitable at times. He said Bottas deserved to win in Baku in 2018 and Bottas deserved to win there about as much as Vettel deserved to win in Australia that same year. Go figure! If someone can provide a counter-interpretation of the Malaysia race's proceedings (as they stand) be my guest...

Sure. Nico was faster.

This lap chart shows that Nico was on the same strategy and was consistently faster throughout the race. He was faster on 36 out of 56 laps, including 30 out of 44 laps before he caught up to Hamilton and was told not to overtake him.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Rosberg

The argument about Lewis using up his tyres trying to catch the Red Bulls doesn't stand. The argument about Nico being on a better strategy due to qualifying (two places) behind doesn't stand. They ran the exact same strategy, and Nico was faster on it.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:34 am 
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Exediron wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
He said that because he can be overly charitable at times. He said Bottas deserved to win in Baku in 2018 and Bottas deserved to win there about as much as Vettel deserved to win in Australia that same year. Go figure! If someone can provide a counter-interpretation of the Malaysia race's proceedings (as they stand) be my guest...

Sure. Nico was faster.

This lap chart shows that Nico was on the same strategy and was consistently faster throughout the race. He was faster on 36 out of 56 laps, including 30 out of 44 laps before he caught up to Hamilton and was told not to overtake him.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... %20Rosberg

The argument about Lewis using up his tyres trying to catch the Red Bulls doesn't stand. The argument about Nico being on a better strategy due to qualifying (two places) behind doesn't stand. They ran the exact same strategy, and Nico was faster on it.


There was no argument about tires whatsoever in my earlier post; only fuel, so heaven knows where you got that from. The data you've kindly provided shows that it was a 4-stop(!) race in which Vettel came in for his stop right after Hamilton did for the last 3 stops of the race. The Red Bull pit wall was responding to Hamilton and not Rosberg. In the 10 laps up to lap 38 Hamilton has Vettel down to under 2 tenths and Webber at around 2 seconds, at which point the fuel saving goes into high gear. If they ran their race more independently of the Red Bulls (not trying to get them to react, going on optimal stint length and pace for fuel consumption) things would have looked different.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:43 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
If they ran their race more independently of the Red Bulls (not trying to get them to react, going on optimal stint length and pace for fuel consumption) things would have looked different.

In the famous words of Fernando Alonso, that's your opinion. The facts show that Nico was faster. You can speculate about hypotheticals all you want.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:08 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Johnson wrote:
The greatness of Hamilton is his race pace. It’s hard to find many races where he had a race pace deficit to his team mate in a legitimate head to head.

China 2018 (maybe)

Russia 2017 (probably Hamiltons worst ever race in terms of pace)

Monaco 2017 (maybe)

Austria 2015 - the only time Rosberg pulled away from him in the dry during the hybrid era

USA 2015 - there was a part of the race Rosberg was quicker on the inters.

Spain 2014 - (maybe)

2013, quite a few races this season. Rosberg was really strong against Hamilton especially in the last 5-6 races. Anybody know them?

2012 Australia

2011 Japan

2011 - I think there might be a few more

2008-2010, not sure there is a race he was out paced by his team mate. Button beat him a few times with tyre gambles in 2010 in the wet but I don’t think Heikki ever did, maybe Malaysia 2008 but I don’t remember the race.

2007. Alonso was quite a bit quicker in a few races. Australia, Malaysia, GB, Spa and Monza.

I would add Singapore 2016, regardless of whether Hamilton missed FP2 or not. That imo is too much of an excuse.

Spain 2015. Abu Dhabi 2015.

Bahrain 2014 - Rosberg looked quicker when they were both on the same tyres (first stint).

In 2013, Rosberg was quicker in Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Singapore, India, Abu Dhabi.


Bahrain 2014, Rosberg was using engine modes he wasn’t meant to. He used these when attempting to overtake. Maybe he was quicker but Hamilton had an awesome pace and built a 10 second lead when they ran alternative tyres in the the middle stint. In retaliation, Hamiton himself used engine modes he wasn’t meant to in the very next race, Spain 2014 - that is why I added Spain 2014 to my list above as a maybe. Mercedes then clamped down on both drives and enforced strict engine mode rules.

Singapore 2016 a definite no for me, he missed FP2 and FP3. ALL night time running. He did FP1 in daylight, that is considered the most useless practise session of the season as it useless for the race and qualifying that occur at night with entirely different track temperatures. He went into qualifying with one single actual lap in race/quali conditions.

FP2
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

FP3
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Lewis Hamilton is great, but he can’t beat Nico Rosberg with zero running going into qualifying. He did well to actually match him in 2 of the 3 sectors. Rosberg smashed him in the other.

Spain 2015, he dropped to 3rd and got caught in traffic for the first 2/3’s of the race unable to overtake Vettel. There is no direct comparison. Hamilton had to 3 stop to pass Vettel, Rosberg 2 stopped. By the time he was past he was 30 seconds behind Rosberg. That is not a direct race pace comparison.

AD 2015 I don’t think. Hamilton begged for an alternative strategy, they gave it to him and it was slower.

Just look at Laps 12-30, Hamilton closes down a 6 second gap to 1 second. That is not a quicker Rosberg. He was quicker for only the short SS stint, once the softs went on (70% of the race) Hamilton had more speed. Hamilton goes super long on the tyres in an attempt to win but it didn’t work.
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

2013, I don’t remember so well so I will take your word.

I feel like you’re giving Hamilton too much leeway here. With this much leeway, you could make the argument that Verstappen hasn’t been outpaced since the beginning of the 2017 high downforce cars.

Regarding Bahrain 2014 - Hamilton did not build a 10 second lead in the middle stint. He build a 4 second lead, the other 6 seconds came from the very powerful undercut. Now 4 seconds in 20 laps on the better tyres doesn’t sound as impressive.


Im looking objectively at races in which comparisons can be drawn.

If you think it’s logical to include races where one guy is in traffic for over half the races (Spain 2015) or races where a driver missing 2 full practise sessions (Singapore 2016) although you thought it was just 1 session right? Still sticking to that one now I’ve informed you it was 2?

If that is your criteria then there are many many races and you can include race like Spa 2016, Russia 2016. But for me, they show you nothing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:26 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Who'd have thought that someone thinking Lewis isn't the bestest would result in some resistance on this forum.

It's a Hamilton thread, am I missing something?



Yes, poker, you are missing something. The title of the thread does not rule out someone resisting the claim of others that Lewis is an all-time great, or even feeling that he isn't the best. As Hamilton was listed in the title question, remember that it is a question. You cannot expect everyone to agree that he is at this point of his career. The majority of posters in this thread have stated that Hamilton is an all-time great, that isn't enough? i suspect that even Lewis Hamilton forums have occasional posts that don't place him on as high a pedestal as the others, it is only natural... unless such posts are banned?

If I post something that somebody else thinks is not true then I'm sure that's going to get pulled up?

Claiming that these past 6 years Hamilton has only had his teammate to beat is going to get questioned, claiming that Verstappen is better/faster is going to get questioned.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:48 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Kingvoid - I'm amazed by the sheer amount of time you have spent over the years searching the internet for things to nitpick at regarding Lewis Hamilton. Must be exhausting.


:thumbup: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:51 pm 
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Inappropriate post removed.


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