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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I wasn't thinking of the "safety" car in this case.

I mean, the "safety" car does totally corrupt any race in which it is used. That's undeniable.

That's a bit different to what I assume you mean by "manufactured races" though? I assume you mean elements added purely to make things more eventful or exciting or sporting regulations that force competitors to do things they wouldn't do otherwise?

Yeah I would mean systems in place that are specifically designed to handicap the top drivers, an extreme example would be reverse grids, I would say that the FE system is along those lines.

If the F1 cars were as even in performance as the FE cars I believe they would never go down that route, the even competition would be enough entertainment in itself, the route FE has gone down is to be basically 100% about entertainment and not so much about the sport itself, they have to ensure multiple winners and championships that go down to wire by basically ensuring that no one driver can build up any kind of lead, after 4 races we have:-

1. Evans 47*
2. Sims 46*
3. da Costa 39
4. Vandoorne 38
5. di Grassi 32
6. Bird 28*
7. Rowland 28
8. Guenther 25*
9. Mortara 22
10. Lotterer 21

*Winners

That's the series hitting it's target.


Yes and that's good for what it is. It's not trying to be F1.

Don't think F1 doesn't add things in to make the racing more exciting as well though. That's what I took to mean by "manufactured" races.

Only if you consider all SC's to be manufactured, rather that then restarted races, how many SC's corrupted the race result last year, 2 or 3?

This opposed to every FE race being corrupted.


What? I literally said wasn't talking about safety cars in this case.

I wouldn't say FE races are corrupted. It's just a formula where cars aren't necessarily lined up in speed order.

When you said you didn't like manufactured races I was actually thinking of the tyre rules we have in F1. You are forced to pit and use two different compounds.

You can't deny that is a manufactured aspect of the sport. If given the choice at Monaco for example they wouldn't pit at all. Other occasions they would rather run medium tyres in both stints etc.

Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:22 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes and that's good for what it is. It's not trying to be F1.

As someone who has watched every ePrix since the first and would consider himself a fan of the series, I don't really agree. I think the excessively gimmicky nature of FE detracts from the standing it could otherwise have as top level motorsport, and that additionally it's totally unnecessary. Formula E cars are already capable of close racing just by their nature: they don't need any help.

The way group qualifying is done is also a pet peeve of mine - we frequently hear the commentators remarking on how impressive it is if anyone from group 1 makes it into Super Pole, and that's because they're screwed by the inevitable track evolution.

All too often, Formula E comes off as a series that's desperate to be exciting and doesn't seem confident enough in its own product to just rely on the good racing it already has.


I don't really disagree with you. I guess I just quite enjoy the gimicky nature of it. It's different. The trouble it has is that nobody really cares who the FE champion is. This means each race as to be exciting in itself.

In other words it's little more than light entertainment?


It's an entertaining motor racing series. Beyond that any individual fan can take it as seriously as they like.

Indeed and for me I can't take it that seriously but it's a nice filler at times.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Posts: 16780
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah I would mean systems in place that are specifically designed to handicap the top drivers, an extreme example would be reverse grids, I would say that the FE system is along those lines.

If the F1 cars were as even in performance as the FE cars I believe they would never go down that route, the even competition would be enough entertainment in itself, the route FE has gone down is to be basically 100% about entertainment and not so much about the sport itself, they have to ensure multiple winners and championships that go down to wire by basically ensuring that no one driver can build up any kind of lead, after 4 races we have:-

1. Evans 47*
2. Sims 46*
3. da Costa 39
4. Vandoorne 38
5. di Grassi 32
6. Bird 28*
7. Rowland 28
8. Guenther 25*
9. Mortara 22
10. Lotterer 21

*Winners

That's the series hitting it's target.


Yes and that's good for what it is. It's not trying to be F1.

Don't think F1 doesn't add things in to make the racing more exciting as well though. That's what I took to mean by "manufactured" races.

Only if you consider all SC's to be manufactured, rather that then restarted races, how many SC's corrupted the race result last year, 2 or 3?

This opposed to every FE race being corrupted.


What? I literally said wasn't talking about safety cars in this case.

I wouldn't say FE races are corrupted. It's just a formula where cars aren't necessarily lined up in speed order.

When you said you didn't like manufactured races I was actually thinking of the tyre rules we have in F1. You are forced to pit and use two different compounds.

You can't deny that is a manufactured aspect of the sport. If given the choice at Monaco for example they wouldn't pit at all. Other occasions they would rather run medium tyres in both stints etc.

Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.


I'm not arguing that it does.

You said - "I can't except manufactured races."

That is what I am arguing against. The entire idea behind the current tyre regulations is to manufacturer races.


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:17 pm 
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I still can't warm up fully to FE.

But I got really bad-tempered at the start of last race. The start sequence, what the hell was that? For some reason some genius felt like it was better to see the starting sequence from behind the pack and switch to the usual front view after lights out and cars had already taken off.

...

We've known how to cover race starts for decades now. It's not rocket science. You film the front of the pack head-on and watch them get away from there.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:30 pm 
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Posts: 33939
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Yes and that's good for what it is. It's not trying to be F1.

Don't think F1 doesn't add things in to make the racing more exciting as well though. That's what I took to mean by "manufactured" races.

Only if you consider all SC's to be manufactured, rather that then restarted races, how many SC's corrupted the race result last year, 2 or 3?

This opposed to every FE race being corrupted.


What? I literally said wasn't talking about safety cars in this case.

I wouldn't say FE races are corrupted. It's just a formula where cars aren't necessarily lined up in speed order.

When you said you didn't like manufactured races I was actually thinking of the tyre rules we have in F1. You are forced to pit and use two different compounds.

You can't deny that is a manufactured aspect of the sport. If given the choice at Monaco for example they wouldn't pit at all. Other occasions they would rather run medium tyres in both stints etc.

Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.


I'm not arguing that it does.

You said - "I can't except manufactured races."

That is what I am arguing against. The entire idea behind the current tyre regulations is to manufacturer races.

It far from creates unjust winners though, manufactured races actually is my reference to manufactured race winners.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:31 pm 
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Posts: 33939
mds wrote:
I still can't warm up fully to FE.

But I got really bad-tempered at the start of last race. The start sequence, what the hell was that? For some reason some genius felt like it was better to see the starting sequence from behind the pack and switch to the usual front view after lights out and cars had already taken off.

...

We've known how to cover race starts for decades now. It's not rocket science. You film the front of the pack head-on and watch them get away from there.

It's probably their version of thinking outside of the box?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:35 pm 
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Posts: 33939
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)

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TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 4463
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)


Totally agree. Football fans the world over care deeply about their team, even if they're mid table in the 7th tier down from the top. It's a spoilt fan that doesn't care about lower places.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:20 pm 
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Posts: 33939
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)

I'd only care about him beating his teammate in respect to his reputation, I'm not a supporter of teams so I'd guess that would throw a different argument on things?

Last season McLaren were rated as having the 4th best car and finished 4th in the WCC so I'm not sure how much of their season was tainted by the qualifying system?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:23 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Right you meant using the 2 different tyre compounds, it's still not my interpretation of corrupting a race, my interpretation is unfairly positioning a slower car in front of a faster car, or causing an unfair change of positions.

For me racing should be a meritocracy not some kind of wouldn't it be good if everyone won a race.

I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)


Totally agree. Football fans the world over care deeply about their team, even if they're mid table in the 7th tier down from the top. It's a spoilt fan that doesn't care about lower places.

Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Also in football one team competes against another team and often has a fair chance of actually winning, strange comparison.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Formula 1 is a team sport. The WDC is a product of the team, just like the WCC; the driver is the final and most visible piece, but you certainly know that he's not the most important one.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 12:02 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Formula 1 is a team sport. The WDC is a product of the team, just like the WCC; the driver is the final and most visible piece, but you certainly know that he's not the most important one.

The WDC is feted far more than the WCC, I watch the sport for the drivers and I believe most people recognise the success of the drivers more than the teams although legendary teams do leave a mark in history.

When you watch F1 much more is made of the driver stats than teams stats which relate to things like number of titles, race wins, pole positions.

I guess this is also why I wouldn't be a big fan of endurance racing which relates more as a team event because you have teams of drivers, horses for courses I guess?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:12 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think the Pirelli tyres have unquestionably had the effect of corrupting the racing in Formula 1. It's not as bad as it used to be, but it's still true that drivers are afraid to push for fear of putting their tyres outside their delicate window.

But Mikey might also be thinking of the Q3 tyre rule, which is actually a very direct way to punish people who qualify just inside the top 10.

Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)


Totally agree. Football fans the world over care deeply about their team, even if they're mid table in the 7th tier down from the top. It's a spoilt fan that doesn't care about lower places.

Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Also in football one team competes against another team and often has a fair chance of actually winning, strange comparison.

It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
I still can't warm up fully to FE.

But I got really bad-tempered at the start of last race. The start sequence, what the hell was that? For some reason some genius felt like it was better to see the starting sequence from behind the pack and switch to the usual front view after lights out and cars had already taken off.

...

We've known how to cover race starts for decades now. It's not rocket science. You film the front of the pack head-on and watch them get away from there.

It's probably their version of thinking outside of the box?


Yeah but it was a bad version - normally you trial this first: get the footage, play it out afterwards to a testing group, get it validated, then do it for an actual live race.

But this was just bad and confusing. With normal start footage you try to get anchor points that allow you to track what's happning. By switching from the back to the front like, 1-2 seconds after lights out, you're throwing out those anchor points and have to quickly reassess on the spot what is happening.

That just wasn't good...

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.
I've been a Williams supporter ever since I started watching F1 in the 1980s. It makes no difference who is driving for them, it's that team I support first and foremost.

To that end, I (currently at least) really do care about the non-points scoring positions and am hoping beyond hope that a Williams car can this year regularly finish not in 19th or 20th place in races.


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:43 pm 
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SteveW wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.
I've been a Williams supporter ever since I started watching F1 in the 1980s. It makes no difference who is driving for them, it's that team I support first and foremost.

To that end, I (currently at least) really do care about the non-points scoring positions and am hoping beyond hope that a Williams car can this year regularly finish not in 19th or 20th place in races.


:thumbup:
I have followed Ferrari and Williams since the mid 80's too. I'm English and Williams always appealed to me, but I have a lot of Italian family and friends, have had all my life, and was heavily influenced by them as they followed F1 so closely. That's why I got behind Ferrari all those years ago. Would love for Williams to be fighting to top 10 finishes. Fingers crossed.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:06 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
SteveW wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.
I've been a Williams supporter ever since I started watching F1 in the 1980s. It makes no difference who is driving for them, it's that team I support first and foremost.

To that end, I (currently at least) really do care about the non-points scoring positions and am hoping beyond hope that a Williams car can this year regularly finish not in 19th or 20th place in races.


:thumbup:
I have followed Ferrari and Williams since the mid 80's too. I'm English and Williams always appealed to me, but I have a lot of Italian family and friends, have had all my life, and was heavily influenced by them as they followed F1 so closely. That's why I got behind Ferrari all those years ago. Would love for Williams to be fighting to top 10 finishes. Fingers crossed.

:nod:
My cousin is a few years older than me and I used to visit him regularly back then (I would have been around 12-13 years old and he would have been about 18ish at the time I guess). He lived in Abingdon, just a short drive up the A34 from Didcot, where the Williams factory was back then. He supported Williams and I guess by default I ended up copying him but have stayed loyal to them.

If (and I know it's a big if realistically) Williams can make it to the top 15 on merit this year I'd probably be as happy as a Mercedes (or Hamilton) supporter watching their car (or driver) cross the line in first place!!!

So yes, to SOME people, the bottom places are very important to them :)


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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.


moot

And no that's not just me adding a Suffolk accent.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:18 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Beg my elitism but I don't really care for who finishes 7-10th, in the history of F1 who really remembers the runners up let alone were drivers finish further down?

Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.

People care if their team is stuck competing for those spots. If Mercedes produces a dog this year and Hamilton is scraping to get into Q3, I think you'll start caring a lot more about 7-10th places. ;)


Totally agree. Football fans the world over care deeply about their team, even if they're mid table in the 7th tier down from the top. It's a spoilt fan that doesn't care about lower places.

Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Also in football one team competes against another team and often has a fair chance of actually winning, strange comparison.

It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.

When a driver you support, in this case a 6 time WDC, has no hope of winning the title because of a poor car then why would I care if he finishes 7th or 8th, much more important is proving himself as being better than his teammate and maintaining his reputation, something we might say that Alonso was able to maintain despite driving poor cars towards the end of his F1 career.

With the football fans the nearest analogy you can get is with the Ferrari fans who only care about Ferrari, do Ferrari fans care were midfield drivers finish?

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:22 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Anyway I believe they are doing away with having to race on qualifying tyres so that's somewhat mute now.


moot

And no that's not just me adding a Suffolk accent.

Thanks, I think I've made that mistake a few times. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why do we compare team sports with individual sports, are we believing that the WCC is more important than the WDC?

Also in football one team competes against another team and often has a fair chance of actually winning, strange comparison.

It's got nothing to do with the WCC. If you support a driver, you should be passionate about them squeezing an extra point by going from 11th to 10th, ever if they regularly win. It's about watching the one you support do the best they can in a given situation. Assuming lower down places are of no important shows a true lack of support in my opinion.

The football analogy is that we hear a lot about part time fans who supported teams like Man Utd, Arsenal etc when they were winning titles, and then disappear when they're not the dominant teams. Only true fans continue their support when the teams are struggling.

When a driver you support, in this case a 6 time WDC, has no hope of winning the title because of a poor car then why would I care if he finishes 7th or 8th, much more important is proving himself as being better than his teammate and maintaining his reputation, something we might say that Alonso was able to maintain despite driving poor cars towards the end of his F1 career.

With the football fans the nearest analogy you can get is with the Ferrari fans who only care about Ferrari, do Ferrari fans care were midfield drivers finish?


If Hamilton has a shocking season due to a bad car, then I'd expect his fans to be thrilled if he can pull off great drives and overtakes to squeeze a 7th place finish out of a race. That's true support. Not being uninterested because he's not fighting for a WDC. That shouts 'spoilt, glory hunting following', not being a true fan of a driver.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
When a driver you support, in this case a 6 time WDC, has no hope of winning the title because of a poor car then why would I care if he finishes 7th or 8th, much more important is proving himself as being better than his teammate and maintaining his reputation, something we might say that Alonso was able to maintain despite driving poor cars towards the end of his F1 career.

Okay, then how about this: Lewis qualifies 10th and has to start on worn tyres, while his teammate behind him starts 11th on fresh rubber. Lewis finishes behind due to the tyre rule, and his reputation takes a hit. Would you care then?

That's basically what happened to Ricciardo in 2013; Vergne beat him quite a few times due largely in part to the Q3 tyre rule.

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:42 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When a driver you support, in this case a 6 time WDC, has no hope of winning the title because of a poor car then why would I care if he finishes 7th or 8th, much more important is proving himself as being better than his teammate and maintaining his reputation, something we might say that Alonso was able to maintain despite driving poor cars towards the end of his F1 career.

Okay, then how about this: Lewis qualifies 10th and has to start on worn tyres, while his teammate behind him starts 11th on fresh rubber. Lewis finishes behind due to the tyre rule, and his reputation takes a hit. Would you care then?

That's basically what happened to Ricciardo in 2013; Vergne beat him quite a few times due largely in part to the Q3 tyre rule.

The Q3 tyre rule was terrible and it got ditched because it was terrible, a driver getting beat by his teammate now again doesn't ruin his reputation so maybe we stretch this to Hamilton always qualifying 10th and his teammate always qualifying 11th?

Also reputation can sometimes stretch beyond points scored unless we want to believe that last season Kubica was better than Russell?

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 Post subject: Re: FE Mexico
PostPosted: Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:18 pm 
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Watching the Marrakesh race now, I wondered if FE fans would want prediction games similar to the F1 ones for season 7?

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