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Rank the drivers in order of ability
Rank the drivers in order of ability at F1 2%  2%  [ 52 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Albon_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 35 ]
Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Bottas_1 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Bottas_2 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Bottas_3 0%  0%  [ 11 ]
Bottas_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Gasly_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 32 ]
Gasly_3 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Gasly_4 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Giovianzzi 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Giovianzzi_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Giovianzzi_2 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Giovianzzi_3 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Giovianzzi_4 2%  2%  [ 40 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Grosjean_1 1%  1%  [ 33 ]
Grosjean_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Grosjean_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Grosjean_4 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Hamilton 2%  2%  [ 47 ]
Hamilton_1 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Hamilton_2 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_3 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hamilton_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Hulkenberg_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hulkenberg_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Hulkenberg_3 2%  2%  [ 42 ]
Hulkenberg_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Kubica 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Kubica_1 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Kubica_2 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Kubica_3 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Kubica_4 2%  2%  [ 49 ]
Kyvat 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Kyvat_1 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Kyvat_2 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Kyvat_3 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Kyvat_4 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Leclerc 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Leclerc_1 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Leclerc_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Leclerc_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Magnussen_1 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Magnussen_2 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Magnussen_3 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Magnussen_4 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Norris 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Norris_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_3 2%  2%  [ 41 ]
Norris_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Perez_1 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Perez_2 1%  1%  [ 31 ]
Perez_3 2%  2%  [ 35 ]
Perez_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 33 ]
Raikkonen_1 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Raikkonen_2 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Raikkonen_3 2%  2%  [ 41 ]
Raikkonen_4 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Ricciardo_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Ricciardo_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Ricciardo_3 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Russell 1%  1%  [ 31 ]
Russell_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Russell_2 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Russell_3 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Russell_4 0%  0%  [ 8 ]
Sainz 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Sainz_1 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Sainz_2 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Sainz_3 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Sainz_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Stroll_1 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Stroll_2 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Stroll_3 0%  0%  [ 6 ]
Stroll_4 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Verstappen 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Verstappen_1 2%  2%  [ 46 ]
Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Vettel_1 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Vettel_2 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Vettel_3 0%  0%  [ 11 ]
Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 2236
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:52 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Checo being in a similar position a few years back was more noteworthy as Force India has never been known to have a good chassis. It was kinder on tyres.

I don't think I'd go that far. From 2014-2017 the Force India was frequently a very good car. In 2017, Perez and Ocon were basically both a lock on points if they finished -- about like the McLaren of today. Perez was and remains quite impressive, but I think one needs to recognize that he did often have the 'best of the rest' car under him in those years (excluding Williams, who briefly became a top team in 2014/15).

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 7:30 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Driver A beats driver B when teammates, driver B moves to another team were he ends up in a better car than what driver A has and beats driver A, driver B is now seen as a better driver than drive A. :)


Exactly. All these people that are rating Sainz highly are being pretty short-sighted really.

Other than Kyvat, (who even Gasly can beat), Sainz has always lost to all the known quantities he has faced in the past, including Hulkenberg who is on his way out of the sport for not being good enough.

But then he beats an unknown quantity in Norris and suddenly he is deemed to have improved leaps and bounds from the past.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that, Norris could just be another Albon/Gasly/Kyvat for all we know.


Who was it who had ranked Sainz 3rd in the best drivers of 2019? Was it Rosberg?

When Checo was best of the rest in 2016 & 17, it wasn't as obvious because the Force India car then too wasn't as good. Sainz, on the other hand, has a very good McLaren under him. It's clearly the 4th best car on most of the tracks, all thanks to a splendid chassis & downforce.

Sainz is good but most of his performances are down to how good the McLaren is. Checo being in a similar position a few years back was more noteworthy as Force India has never been known to have a good chassis. It was kinder on tyres.


Yeah, and to be honest, Rosberg is very good at driving Formula One cars very fast, he will also have some internal sources in the sport, particularly in Mercedes, which means he can be more 'in-the-know' on certain topics than posters on here, but he isn't necessarily great at understanding the likely pecking order of drivers in the field. This is because he is more concentrated on the here and now 'pizazz' of F1 rather than worrying about spending time looking back over past seasons to try and rate a particular midfield driver. I'm sure he just chose Sainz as third best driver based on 'feels' rather than any rational deduction on his part.

If you put Sainz in top machinery now, I would expect him to be performing about halfway between Albon and Bottas, which isn't that great considering Bottas sometimes gets criticised for needing to up his game and he sometimes goes missing in races.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Checo being in a similar position a few years back was more noteworthy as Force India has never been known to have a good chassis. It was kinder on tyres.

I don't think I'd go that far. From 2014-2017 the Force India was frequently a very good car. In 2017, Perez and Ocon were basically both a lock on points if they finished -- about like the McLaren of today. Perez was and remains quite impressive, but I think one needs to recognize that he did often have the 'best of the rest' car under him in those years (excluding Williams, who briefly became a top team in 2014/15).


1 more fact regarding Checo!

Since 2012 (leaving only 2013 season away), he's alwys finished in the top 10 of the WDC standings. This year it was a massive challenge for him to achieve this as Racing Point at best was only better than Alfa Romeo, Haas & Williams.

IMO, Perez deserves a higher ranking as he scored 39 points just after the summer break. Maybe the RP car got better due to the upgrades but it still wasnt a match for McLaren, Renault & even Toro Rosso.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm baffled that many people seem to think Sainz is a fair bit better than Perez. Perez has done what Sainz has this season on a few occasions himself and beat Hulkenberg whilst Sainz lost to him.


I'm baffled on how you can say this. Mclaren still had reliability problems and Perez had a chance at a top tier team and didn't do as expected (which in my view tainted his future in a top team). His best performances seem to be more strategy related and inconsistent. Really doesn't help that Perez has been in F1 long enough for the team bosses to say if they'd stick him in a race winning car. But that's only my opinion.

At the end of the day, Sainz and Perez are not team mates so not exactly the same machinery to compare. I feel more comfortable putting Sainz in a car seat over Perez.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:43 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm baffled that many people seem to think Sainz is a fair bit better than Perez. Perez has done what Sainz has this season on a few occasions himself and beat Hulkenberg whilst Sainz lost to him.


I'm baffled on how you can say this. Mclaren still had reliability problems and Perez had a chance at a top tier team and didn't do as expected (which in my view tainted his future in a top team). His best performances seem to be more strategy related and inconsistent. Really doesn't help that Perez has been in F1 long enough for the team bosses to say if they'd stick him in a race winning car. But that's only my opinion.

At the end of the day, Sainz and Perez are not team mates so not exactly the same machinery to compare. I feel more comfortable putting Sainz in a car seat over Perez.


I'd 100% say Perez didn't have a shot a top team if you're referring to Mclaren. They finished 4th in the constructors championship same as this year without ever having a car to fight for the win. And he matched Button in the 2nd half of the season which is probably about where he is as a driver.

We can quite easily directly compare Perez and Sainz because of Hulkenberg and Perez came out on top.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:02 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
We can quite easily directly compare Perez and Sainz because of Hulkenberg and Perez came out on top.

Sainz had one year against Hulkenberg, during which he was dropped into Hulk's team and halfway through the year knew he would be leaving. In the first year Perez and Hulk were teammates (2014), Perez was honestly pretty soundly beaten. I don't think the 2018 Sainz/Hulk season was as representative as people make it out to be.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
We can quite easily directly compare Perez and Sainz because of Hulkenberg and Perez came out on top.

Sainz had one year against Hulkenberg, during which he was dropped into Hulk's team and halfway through the year knew he would be leaving. In the first year Perez and Hulk were teammates (2014), Perez was honestly pretty soundly beaten. I don't think the 2018 Sainz/Hulk season was as representative as people make it out to be.


Sainz did also have the back end of the year before to adjust to the Renault team. Perez was at least as good as Hulk in 2014 as well. Finished ahead more often than not. He lost a lot of points in the first two races and never made up the gap.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
We can quite easily directly compare Perez and Sainz because of Hulkenberg and Perez came out on top.

Sainz had one year against Hulkenberg, during which he was dropped into Hulk's team and halfway through the year knew he would be leaving. In the first year Perez and Hulk were teammates (2014), Perez was honestly pretty soundly beaten. I don't think the 2018 Sainz/Hulk season was as representative as people make it out to be.

Sainz did also have the back end of the year before to adjust to the Renault team. Perez was at least as good as Hulk in 2014 as well. Finished ahead more often than not. He lost a lot of points in the first two races and never made up the gap.

The rest might be subjective, but that's not. Hulk scored 18 points in the first two races, and finished 37 ahead. Their head-to-head when both finished was 7-7.

For the sake of completeness, I did the same for Sainz and Hulk; their head-to-head was 8-4 in favor of Hulk. Hulk went 5-0 in their first five races together in 2018, and then 3-4 for the rest of the year. To me, that suggests that Sainz did not have a representative season because he was not fully comfortable with the team and car yet.

And for a final comparison, Ricciardo is 11-4 (counting Japan). I think Sainz, Perez and Hulk are all in the same ballpark, but I personally believe that Hulk is a step behind the other two, and at their best Sainz and Perez are well matched. They're all clearly a step below a top driver, however.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:51 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
We can quite easily directly compare Perez and Sainz because of Hulkenberg and Perez came out on top.

Sainz had one year against Hulkenberg, during which he was dropped into Hulk's team and halfway through the year knew he would be leaving. In the first year Perez and Hulk were teammates (2014), Perez was honestly pretty soundly beaten. I don't think the 2018 Sainz/Hulk season was as representative as people make it out to be.

Sainz did also have the back end of the year before to adjust to the Renault team. Perez was at least as good as Hulk in 2014 as well. Finished ahead more often than not. He lost a lot of points in the first two races and never made up the gap.

The rest might be subjective, but that's not. Hulk scored 18 points in the first two races, and finished 37 ahead. Their head-to-head when both finished was 7-7.

For the sake of completeness, I did the same for Sainz and Hulk; their head-to-head was 8-4 in favor of Hulk. Hulk went 5-0 in their first five races together in 2018, and then 3-4 for the rest of the year. To me, that suggests that Sainz did not have a representative season because he was not fully comfortable with the team and car yet.

And for a final comparison, Ricciardo is 11-4 (counting Japan). I think Sainz, Perez and Hulk are all in the same ballpark, but I personally believe that Hulk is a step behind the other two, and at their best Sainz and Perez are well matched. They're all clearly a step below a top driver, however.


Yes apologies my memory is obviously struggling! I have no issue with Perez and Sainz being rated at a similar level. I think they probably are. But Sainz is rated about 3 places higher on average and I don't see what he's done that Perez hasn't but I do see things Perez has done that Sainz hasn't.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The rest might be subjective, but that's not. Hulk scored 18 points in the first two races, and finished 37 ahead. Their head-to-head when both finished was 7-7.

For the sake of completeness, I did the same for Sainz and Hulk; their head-to-head was 8-4 in favor of Hulk. Hulk went 5-0 in their first five races together in 2018, and then 3-4 for the rest of the year. To me, that suggests that Sainz did not have a representative season because he was not fully comfortable with the team and car yet.

And for a final comparison, Ricciardo is 11-4 (counting Japan). I think Sainz, Perez and Hulk are all in the same ballpark, but I personally believe that Hulk is a step behind the other two, and at their best Sainz and Perez are well matched. They're all clearly a step below a top driver, however.


Yes apologies my memory is obviously struggling! I have no issue with Perez and Sainz being rated at a similar level. I think they probably are. But Sainz is rated about 3 places higher on average and I don't see what he's done that Perez hasn't but I do see things Perez has done that Sainz hasn't.

I'd guess it is that Sainz has had more opportunity to shine this season as opposed to Perez. That may well have skewed the poll.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Looking at the results, some consensus groups are beginning to emerge.

Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc are firmly in the 1 / 2 / 3 spots - with 1.06 / 2.18 / 3.5 group average positions

We then have a fight for fourth place between Ricciardo / Bottas / Vettel / Sainz with average votes of 5.91 to 6.74 for the group.

Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38

The fight for 10th place is hotly contents between Albon / Hulkenberg / Raikkonen and Russell (10.59 to 11.71)

14th place is being fought between Gasly, Magnussen and Kyvat (13.88 to 15.15)

17th place is a battle between Giovianzzi and Grosjean (16.68 / 16.79)

19th and 20th and pretty much decided as Stroll and Kubica (17.97 and 19.41 respectively)


...


A note on the maths - in case anyone is wondering why the numbers don't align exactly with the position people are fighting for. Because it's impossible for anyone to average exactly 1st or 20th, unless they get ONLY those votes, it means that in the midfield there will be some drift. If you all up all the averages positions, it will add up to the same as if you added 1,2,3 ... 18,19,20, but because each of the midfield votes has a wider spread of votes (standard deviation) than the ones at the top or the bottom of the order, it means this apparent misalignment occurs.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:28 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Looking at the results, some consensus groups are beginning to emerge.

Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc are firmly in the 1 / 2 / 3 spots - with 1.06 / 2.18 / 3.5 group average positions

We then have a fight for fourth place between Ricciardo / Bottas / Vettel / Sainz with average votes of 5.91 to 6.74 for the group.

Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38

The fight for 10th place is hotly contents between Albon / Hulkenberg / Raikkonen and Russell (10.59 to 11.71)

14th place is being fought between Gasly, Magnussen and Kyvat (13.88 to 15.15)

17th place is a battle between Giovianzzi and Grosjean (16.68 / 16.79)

19th and 20th and pretty much decided as Stroll and Kubica (17.97 and 19.41 respectively)


...


A note on the maths - in case anyone is wondering why the numbers don't align exactly with the position people are fighting for. Because it's impossible for anyone to average exactly 1st or 20th, unless they get ONLY those votes, it means that in the midfield there will be some drift. If you all up all the averages positions, it will add up to the same as if you added 1,2,3 ... 18,19,20, but because each of the midfield votes has a wider spread of votes (standard deviation) than the ones at the top or the bottom of the order, it means this apparent misalignment occurs.


If Verstappen has an average of 2.18, that means at least one person has voted him to not be one of the two best. I wonder who they have ahead of him and why.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:45 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Looking at the results, some consensus groups are beginning to emerge.

Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc are firmly in the 1 / 2 / 3 spots - with 1.06 / 2.18 / 3.5 group average positions

We then have a fight for fourth place between Ricciardo / Bottas / Vettel / Sainz with average votes of 5.91 to 6.74 for the group.

Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38

The fight for 10th place is hotly contents between Albon / Hulkenberg / Raikkonen and Russell (10.59 to 11.71)

14th place is being fought between Gasly, Magnussen and Kyvat (13.88 to 15.15)

17th place is a battle between Giovianzzi and Grosjean (16.68 / 16.79)

19th and 20th and pretty much decided as Stroll and Kubica (17.97 and 19.41 respectively)


...


A note on the maths - in case anyone is wondering why the numbers don't align exactly with the position people are fighting for. Because it's impossible for anyone to average exactly 1st or 20th, unless they get ONLY those votes, it means that in the midfield there will be some drift. If you all up all the averages positions, it will add up to the same as if you added 1,2,3 ... 18,19,20, but because each of the midfield votes has a wider spread of votes (standard deviation) than the ones at the top or the bottom of the order, it means this apparent misalignment occurs.


If Verstappen has an average of 2.18, that means at least one person has voted him to not be one of the two best. I wonder who they have ahead of him and why.

I can't do this for all drivers, because this system doesn't give me a break down of how people voted. However from the data I do have it is possible to reverse engineer the voting a little:

Hamilton has 33 votes for 1st and 2 votes for 2nd.
Verstappen has a few possible vote examples, but at least two people have voted him 4th (with one potentially as low as 7th) 2 firsts, 31 seconds, a fifth and a seventh would explain the data logged.

Quite frankly, this astounds me.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:29 pm 
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I put Max 2nd, but I can see why he maybe lower. Mexico for example would be pretty stupid at rookie level. After 5 seasons? Spa showed it isn't a one off.
But 5th and 7th; really?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm 
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I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:05 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.

I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:07 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.

I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.


I agree with both of you.

10th is too high for Albon at the moment. At the very least the Verstappen/Ricciardo/Hulkenberg cross comparison shows Hulkenberg to be better.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:17 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:38 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.

I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.


Magnussen was as quick as Button in his rookie season. I do think he is quicker than Albon. You could argue racecraft, but in terms of speed - no way!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:45 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.

I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.


Magnussen was as quick as Button in his rookie season. I do think he is quicker than Albon. You could argue racecraft, but in terms of speed - no way!


Yeah, I rate Magnussen as a solid midfielder. I am really happy with my ratings list on the first page. I have Albon as 16th best currently.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:37 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.

Magnussen was as quick as Button in his rookie season. I do think he is quicker than Albon. You could argue racecraft, but in terms of speed - no way!

Only in qualifying, and Button was a notoriously poor qualifier. He slaughtered Magnussen in races, 15-3.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:45 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.

Magnussen was as quick as Button in his rookie season. I do think he is quicker than Albon. You could argue racecraft, but in terms of speed - no way!

Only in qualifying, and Button was a notoriously poor qualifier. He slaughtered Magnussen in races, 15-3.


Also because Magnussen made a lot of rookie mistakes (and had some bad luck in crucial situations like in the German GP). If you actually look at the races, the speed level is not too different. Despite less experience, Magnussen did not perform worse compared to Button than Perez the year before.

Also, Grosjean is a catastrophe regarding consistency and mistakes, but he is not slow. The speed is there.

On pure speed, both Magnussen and Grosjean are likely to be ahead of Albon, Kvyat, etc. - and closer to Verstappen than + 0.6 s. Of course, racecraft and consistency are a different story.

Edit: it is quite typical actually - rookie Albon gets praised for getting slaughtered by Verstappen in qualifying and races. Rookie Magnussen gets criticised for losing out in the races to Button while beating him qualifying. ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:46 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.

It's a clear example of the car influencing the thinking.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.

Magnussen was as quick as Button in his rookie season. I do think he is quicker than Albon. You could argue racecraft, but in terms of speed - no way!

Only in qualifying, and Button was a notoriously poor qualifier. He slaughtered Magnussen in races, 15-3.


Also because Magnussen made a lot of rookie mistakes (and had some bad luck in crucial situations like in the German GP). If you actually look at the races, the speed level is not too different. Despite less experience, Magnussen did not perform worse compared to Button than Perez the year before.

Also, Grosjean is a catastrophe regarding consistency and mistakes, but he is not slow. The speed is there.

On pure speed, both Magnussen and Grosjean are likely to be ahead of Albon, Kvyat, etc. - and closer to Verstappen than + 0.6 s. Of course, racecraft and consistency are a different story.

Edit: it is quite typical actually - rookie Albon gets praised for getting slaughtered by Verstappen in qualifying and races. Rookie Magnussen gets criticised for losing out in the races to Button while beating him qualifying. ;-)


The other common narrative is that it takes a rookie driver multiple seasons to get on the pace and it's ok for them to be getting thrashed in qualifying and races in their first season while they get up to speed.

Examples such as Magnussen, (where he wasn't even that great), show that a capable rookie should still be able to occasionally compete with an experienced teammate. The fact that it was 21-0 to Max in both qualifying and race pace vs Gasly and Albon combined is not cool. Only one time in Britain did either look fairly close to Max, but then again Max spent most of that race being held up by both Ferrari's so it is unclear how much faster than Gasly Max really was on that day, but he was still at least a bit faster.

So yeah, new rookies that go on to be top drivers actually start beating their experienced teammates in their first season, but even average rookies like Magnussen will give their experienced teammate a run for their money at least some of the time. However the rookies that get pummelled like Vandoorne, and seemingly Albon and Gasly, are not long for the sport unfortunately, (but the existence of Torro Rosso does help save them and keep some of these weak drivers in the sport longer than they should be for political reasons).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:34 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Looking at the results, some consensus groups are beginning to emerge.

Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc are firmly in the 1 / 2 / 3 spots - with 1.06 / 2.18 / 3.5 group average positions

We then have a fight for fourth place between Ricciardo / Bottas / Vettel / Sainz with average votes of 5.91 to 6.74 for the group.

Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38

The fight for 10th place is hotly contents between Albon / Hulkenberg / Raikkonen and Russell (10.59 to 11.71)

14th place is being fought between Gasly, Magnussen and Kyvat (13.88 to 15.15)

17th place is a battle between Giovianzzi and Grosjean (16.68 / 16.79)

19th and 20th and pretty much decided as Stroll and Kubica (17.97 and 19.41 respectively)


...


A note on the maths - in case anyone is wondering why the numbers don't align exactly with the position people are fighting for. Because it's impossible for anyone to average exactly 1st or 20th, unless they get ONLY those votes, it means that in the midfield there will be some drift. If you all up all the averages positions, it will add up to the same as if you added 1,2,3 ... 18,19,20, but because each of the midfield votes has a wider spread of votes (standard deviation) than the ones at the top or the bottom of the order, it means this apparent misalignment occurs.


If Verstappen has an average of 2.18, that means at least one person has voted him to not be one of the two best. I wonder who they have ahead of him and why.

I can't do this for all drivers, because this system doesn't give me a break down of how people voted. However from the data I do have it is possible to reverse engineer the voting a little:

Hamilton has 33 votes for 1st and 2 votes for 2nd.
Verstappen has a few possible vote examples, but at least two people have voted him 4th (with one potentially as low as 7th) 2 firsts, 31 seconds, a fifth and a seventh would explain the data logged.

Quite frankly, this astounds me.

Indeed it would take some explaining why either Hamilton or Verstappen would be placed outside of the top 2.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:24 pm 
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I see Ham has gone from 1.06 to 1.26 in less than 24 hours. How quickly it changes.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:12 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
I see Ham has gone from 1.06 to 1.26 in less than 24 hours. How quickly it changes.

Indeed 1 or 2 low votes just got thrown in, a couple of votes between 3-5, or it could be simply one person placing him between 6-8.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:26 am 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I see Ham has gone from 1.06 to 1.26 in less than 24 hours. How quickly it changes.

Indeed 1 or 2 low votes just got thrown in, a couple of votes between 3-5, or it could be simply one person placing him between 6-8.


I would wonder if it might be some "orange army" Verstappen supporter trying to push Max up into first place while pulling Lewis down the order. A lot of folks treat these polls like popularity contests. Possibly, possibly not.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:28 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I see Ham has gone from 1.06 to 1.26 in less than 24 hours. How quickly it changes.

Indeed 1 or 2 low votes just got thrown in, a couple of votes between 3-5, or it could be simply one person placing him between 6-8.


I would wonder if it might be some "orange army" Verstappen supporter trying to push Max up into first place while pulling Lewis down the order. A lot of folks treat these polls like popularity contests. Possibly, possibly not.

It can be a problem with secret polls, having said that I've been impressed with the integrity of this poll, I guess you might say just 1 or 2 questionable picks for both Hamilton and Verstappen?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Indeed it would take some explaining why either Hamilton or Verstappen would be placed outside of the top 2.

I think it would be difficult or impossible to justify putting Hamilton and Verstappen out of the top two over the course of the season. No other drivers attained the same mix of unquestionable pace (George Russell, for example, might have been half a second faster than either and we'd never know) and a very low rate of mistakes. Max went through a bit of a bad patch right after the summer break, but even so he didn't equal Vettel or Leclerc's rate of serious errors.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:49 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:36 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.

Voting for how well the drivers may perform in 2020 I would say is the complete opposite of the poll, we're voting for how well the drivers have actually performed after 2019.

If only the likes of Perez, the Hulk and Sainz had ever been teammates.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:49 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.

Voting for how well the drivers may perform in 2020 I would say is the complete opposite of the poll, we're voting for how well the drivers have actually performed after 2019.

If only the likes of Perez, the Hulk and Sainz had ever been teammates.


The poll is based on driver ability, as per OP. Therefore, I would imagine some would believe Norris will be able to perform better now that he's experienced a full season of F1.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:58 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.

Voting for how well the drivers may perform in 2020 I would say is the complete opposite of the poll, we're voting for how well the drivers have actually performed after 2019.

If only the likes of Perez, the Hulk and Sainz had ever been teammates.


The poll is based on driver ability, as per OP. Therefore, I would imagine some would believe Norris will be able to perform better now that he's experienced a full season of F1.

Fair enough then, I find it a bit confusing to isolate that from how drivers actually perform.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:14 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.


Even though you saw Perez and Hulkenberg as team mates and Perez was better?


I've watched F1 for decades and I've never seen a driver as determinedly underrated as Perez. It doesn't matter what he does or who he beats.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:31 am 
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The Perez / Hulkenberg / Sainz debate seems to be revolving around the idea that Perez slaughtered Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg slaughtered Sainz, therefore Sainz - yet their results were all pretty even. It's fair to say that Perez edged Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg edged Sainz, but given that driver performance isn't static, and affected by car performance and team harmony the difference is not significant enough to put any of the drivers in a different level of driving ability, nor to say that their relative performance is set in stone.

That last point is particularly pertinent to Sainz, who is still a young driver and growing. Ahead of his first season in McLaren he even said that the fact he was on a two year contract for the first time in his career meant he would be able to approach racing in a different way, as he wouldn't be driving for his seat at every race. Coupled with the fact that he was effectively headhunted by McLaren after they failed to get Ricciardo, was brought in as a team leader as a long term driver, it would have been a completely different environment to his previous seasons.

There's also the Verstappen comparison with Sainz. There are a couple of things to be said about that as well. Both drivers were rookies in that season. Even though Max won the battle, it was not as significant as the points difference suggests - even at the end of 2015 the pundits still debating which of the Toro Rosso drivers would be promoted first. However, it's also the case that Max Verstappen has now also proven himself to be one of the sport's elite drivers - basically considered the only driver on the grid operating anywhere near the same level as a 13 season veteran with 6 championships and set to break pretty much every F1 record.

I basically rate all three drivers at the same level, and in my ordering I put them Sainz, Perez, Hulkenberg. I think that this season was one of growth for Carlos Sainz - yes he had a better car than Perez or Hulkenberg, but he delivered with it, and developed as a driver. Perez and Hulkenberg meanwhile, are seasoned drivers and while drivers will always learn and develop, those gains lessen as time goes on.

I also agree that Perez is one of the most underrated drivers on the grid.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:55 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The Perez / Hulkenberg / Sainz debate seems to be revolving around the idea that Perez slaughtered Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg slaughtered Sainz, therefore Sainz - yet their results were all pretty even. It's fair to say that Perez edged Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg edged Sainz, but given that driver performance isn't static, and affected by car performance and team harmony the difference is not significant enough to put any of the drivers in a different level of driving ability, nor to say that their relative performance is set in stone.

That last point is particularly pertinent to Sainz, who is still a young driver and growing. Ahead of his first season in McLaren he even said that the fact he was on a two year contract for the first time in his career meant he would be able to approach racing in a different way, as he wouldn't be driving for his seat at every race. Coupled with the fact that he was effectively headhunted by McLaren after they failed to get Ricciardo, was brought in as a team leader as a long term driver, it would have been a completely different environment to his previous seasons.

There's also the Verstappen comparison with Sainz. There are a couple of things to be said about that as well. Both drivers were rookies in that season. Even though Max won the battle, it was not as significant as the points difference suggests - even at the end of 2015 the pundits still debating which of the Toro Rosso drivers would be promoted first. However, it's also the case that Max Verstappen has now also proven himself to be one of the sport's elite drivers - basically considered the only driver on the grid operating anywhere near the same level as a 13 season veteran with 6 championships and set to break pretty much every F1 record.

I basically rate all three drivers at the same level, and in my ordering I put them Sainz, Perez, Hulkenberg. I think that this season was one of growth for Carlos Sainz - yes he had a better car than Perez or Hulkenberg, but he delivered with it, and developed as a driver. Perez and Hulkenberg meanwhile, are seasoned drivers and while drivers will always learn and develop, those gains lessen as time goes on.

I also agree that Perez is one of the most underrated drivers on the grid.


You say it yourself in the first paragraph. Perez/Hulkenberg/Sainz as a cross team mate comparison look pretty even with Sainz being slightly the worse of the 3 yet here Sainz is being rated on average 3 places above Perez and 5 above Hulkenberg.

Sainz being rated above them would be reasonable given he's had a good year but not by the very large amount he is being currently. To me that's just weird and illogical.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:33 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.


Even though you saw Perez and Hulkenberg as team mates and Perez was better?


I've watched F1 for decades and I've never seen a driver as determinedly underrated as Perez. It doesn't matter what he does or who he beats.


While the Perez vs Hulkenberg battle evades my memory, I believe I considered Hulkenberg to be generally performing better. I reference this article about their rivalry: https://www.racefans.net/2017/01/09/perez-vs-hulkenberg-result-three-years/, and ask, what has Perez done, other than grab a few podiums, that was significantly better than Hulkenberg? I maintain a viewpoint that Hulkenberg is the quicker driver, yet Perez may be better at race management. Furthermore, Perez had his chance at McLaren and didn't fare well. Hulkenberg never had that opportunity to prove himself in driving for a top team.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:12 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Then a fight for 8th between Perez and Norris (average position 9.24 and 9.38)

Kind of missed this one, but there's no way that's reasonable. Sainz and Perez I can see a strong equivalence for, but Sainz is clearly better than Norris at this point in their careers -- and by extension, so is Perez. Either a case of people overrating Norris by early season form or underrating Perez as usual.


I thought Norris did a very respectable job against Sainz this season, no? I don't have the stats to back this but IIRC they finished level in qualifying head-to-head, and, while Sainz generally finished ahead, Norris had his fair share of reliability woes. Furthermore, as it is an 'End of Season' poll, I would imagine people are voting based off how well they will compete in 2020, rather than how well they've performed to date.

However, I would be on the side of forumers here that doesn't rate Perez that highly. I consider Hulkenberg and Sainz better, and would be hesitant on whether Perez would beat Norris or not.


Even though you saw Perez and Hulkenberg as team mates and Perez was better?


I've watched F1 for decades and I've never seen a driver as determinedly underrated as Perez. It doesn't matter what he does or who he beats.


While the Perez vs Hulkenberg battle evades my memory, I believe I considered Hulkenberg to be generally performing better. I reference this article about their rivalry: https://www.racefans.net/2017/01/09/perez-vs-hulkenberg-result-three-years/, and ask, what has Perez done, other than grab a few podiums, that was significantly better than Hulkenberg? I maintain a viewpoint that Hulkenberg is the quicker driver, yet Perez may be better at race management. Furthermore, Perez had his chance at McLaren and didn't fare well. Hulkenberg never had that opportunity to prove himself in driving for a top team.


Surely grabbing podiums whilst your team mate isn't is performing significantly better in itself? It's like saying what did he do better apart from getting better results... He wasn't significantly better than Hulk all round but he was better. He was more consistent, scored more points and was the driver capable of pulling off the odd great result. Hulk was better than Perez in qualifying other than that Perez was the better driver.

The Mclaren Perez drove wasn't even the best car of his career and he fared fine for a guy in a new team. He was pretty much Button's equal for the second half of the season.

Perez isn't tier 1 and may not be as fast as Hulkenberg. The main differences between them is that when a good result is up for grabs Perez takes it whilst Hulkenberg generally falters and that Perez is generally a far more consistent point scorer.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:39 am 
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Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.

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