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Rank the drivers in order of ability
Rank the drivers in order of ability at F1 2%  2%  [ 52 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Albon_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 35 ]
Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Bottas_1 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Bottas_2 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Bottas_3 0%  0%  [ 11 ]
Bottas_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Gasly 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Gasly_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 32 ]
Gasly_3 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Gasly_4 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Giovianzzi 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Giovianzzi_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Giovianzzi_2 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Giovianzzi_3 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Giovianzzi_4 2%  2%  [ 40 ]
Grosjean 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Grosjean_1 1%  1%  [ 33 ]
Grosjean_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Grosjean_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Grosjean_4 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Hamilton 2%  2%  [ 47 ]
Hamilton_1 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Hamilton_2 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hamilton_3 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hamilton_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Hulkenberg 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Hulkenberg_1 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Hulkenberg_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Hulkenberg_3 2%  2%  [ 42 ]
Hulkenberg_4 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Kubica 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Kubica_1 0%  0%  [ 7 ]
Kubica_2 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Kubica_3 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Kubica_4 2%  2%  [ 49 ]
Kyvat 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Kyvat_1 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Kyvat_2 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Kyvat_3 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Kyvat_4 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Leclerc 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Leclerc_1 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Leclerc_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Leclerc_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Leclerc_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Magnussen 1%  1%  [ 24 ]
Magnussen_1 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Magnussen_2 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Magnussen_3 1%  1%  [ 28 ]
Magnussen_4 1%  1%  [ 23 ]
Norris 1%  1%  [ 25 ]
Norris_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Norris_3 2%  2%  [ 41 ]
Norris_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Perez 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Perez_1 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Perez_2 1%  1%  [ 31 ]
Perez_3 2%  2%  [ 35 ]
Perez_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Raikkonen 1%  1%  [ 33 ]
Raikkonen_1 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Raikkonen_2 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Raikkonen_3 2%  2%  [ 41 ]
Raikkonen_4 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Ricciardo_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Ricciardo_2 1%  1%  [ 26 ]
Ricciardo_3 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Russell 1%  1%  [ 31 ]
Russell_1 1%  1%  [ 27 ]
Russell_2 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Russell_3 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Russell_4 0%  0%  [ 8 ]
Sainz 1%  1%  [ 21 ]
Sainz_1 1%  1%  [ 29 ]
Sainz_2 2%  2%  [ 36 ]
Sainz_3 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Sainz_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Stroll 2%  2%  [ 37 ]
Stroll_1 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Stroll_2 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Stroll_3 0%  0%  [ 6 ]
Stroll_4 2%  2%  [ 45 ]
Verstappen 0%  0%  [ 10 ]
Verstappen_1 2%  2%  [ 46 ]
Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 22 ]
Vettel_1 1%  1%  [ 30 ]
Vettel_2 2%  2%  [ 39 ]
Vettel_3 0%  0%  [ 11 ]
Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 2236
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The Perez / Hulkenberg / Sainz debate seems to be revolving around the idea that Perez slaughtered Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg slaughtered Sainz, therefore Sainz - yet their results were all pretty even. It's fair to say that Perez edged Hulkenberg and Hulkenberg edged Sainz, but given that driver performance isn't static, and affected by car performance and team harmony the difference is not significant enough to put any of the drivers in a different level of driving ability, nor to say that their relative performance is set in stone.

That last point is particularly pertinent to Sainz, who is still a young driver and growing. Ahead of his first season in McLaren he even said that the fact he was on a two year contract for the first time in his career meant he would be able to approach racing in a different way, as he wouldn't be driving for his seat at every race. Coupled with the fact that he was effectively headhunted by McLaren after they failed to get Ricciardo, was brought in as a team leader as a long term driver, it would have been a completely different environment to his previous seasons.

There's also the Verstappen comparison with Sainz. There are a couple of things to be said about that as well. Both drivers were rookies in that season. Even though Max won the battle, it was not as significant as the points difference suggests - even at the end of 2015 the pundits still debating which of the Toro Rosso drivers would be promoted first. However, it's also the case that Max Verstappen has now also proven himself to be one of the sport's elite drivers - basically considered the only driver on the grid operating anywhere near the same level as a 13 season veteran with 6 championships and set to break pretty much every F1 record.

I basically rate all three drivers at the same level, and in my ordering I put them Sainz, Perez, Hulkenberg. I think that this season was one of growth for Carlos Sainz - yes he had a better car than Perez or Hulkenberg, but he delivered with it, and developed as a driver. Perez and Hulkenberg meanwhile, are seasoned drivers and while drivers will always learn and develop, those gains lessen as time goes on.

I also agree that Perez is one of the most underrated drivers on the grid.


You say it yourself in the first paragraph. Perez/Hulkenberg/Sainz as a cross team mate comparison look pretty even with Sainz being slightly the worse of the 3 yet here Sainz is being rated on average 3 places above Perez and 5 above Hulkenberg.

Sainz being rated above them would be reasonable given he's had a good year but not by the very large amount he is being currently. To me that's just weird and illogical.

Indeed and I as said before the variance is more in the cars the drivers compete in rather than the drivers themselves, this year Sainz beat Perez and the Hulk because he was in a better car, for me it's as simple as that.

Another example of this is how Vettel got viewed after getting beat by Ricciardo in 2014, with the help of a better car and weaker teammate after a few years he was being viewed as being better than Ricciardo without ever having to revisit the direct comparison.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:40 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.

There's no way that Perez could have achieved a podium this year in the McLaren on merit, there is a reason why F1 presently is called 2 tier F1 meaning it's not possible for a midfield car to obtain a podium on merit, even to finish in the top 6 on merit since Gasly got dropped from Red Bull.

Even Albon can start from the pit lane and beat all the midfield cars, the gap is simply to big for a midfield car to gain a podium on merit and Perez simply is not that special to do it, were is the sense in him being able to beat the likes of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Vettel, even Bottas in car that's at least 1 second slower or even Albon?

The reality of the match up between the Hulk and Perez is that the Hulk out qualified Perez all 3 seasons although it was reasonably close every season.

Perez beat the Hulk 2-1 in the WDC, losing out in his first season with the team, with the Hulk being the incumbent driver. The telling factor in the last 2 seasons were the podiums that Perez achieved and not the consistency of results because the Hulk matched Perez in the head to head in both seasons meaning that in the races he finished as often in front of Perez as did Perez the other way around.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:21 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
I'm guessing all the people that think Albon is around 10th place means that all the drivers in the bottom half of the field would be 0.6+ seconds off Verstappen which means we would have a very weak grid overall.

For example Raikkonen, Hulkenberg and Russell are all seen as being worse drivers than Albon and would be Gasly-like levels of pace off Max. Seems like a stretch to me and so people aren't really putting full thought into this in my opinion.

I voted Albon 13th, and I do indeed believe everyone below him (Magnussen, Gasly, Grosjean, Kyvat, Giovianzzi, Stroll, Kubica) would by 0.6+ seconds off Max. I think it's actually pretty typical that a third of the drivers on the grid would be about that far off the best.


I agree with where you placed Albon but I can't agree with most of those drivers all being 0.6 sec off Max or the fastest driver on the grid. In these days of simulators and all the driver coaching these guys have available to them I have to think it is very rare to be truly that far off someone consistently and be able to survive on the grid. Kvyat is a guy that could, albeit very rarely, outqualify Daniel Ricciardo on merit. So if he is able to beat him sometimes it means the gap between them is not that large. Grosjean showed he could be fast late in 2013, and as has been pointed out speed has never been his main issue. The mistakes are. The only guys that would be legitimately be that far off the fastest guy imo are Kubica and Stroll, and many people feel those two don't belong in F1.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.

There's no way that Perez could have achieved a podium this year in the McLaren on merit, there is a reason why F1 presently is called 2 tier F1 meaning it's not possible for a midfield car to obtain a podium on merit, even to finish in the top 6 on merit since Gasly got dropped from Red Bull.

Even Albon can start from the pit lane and beat all the midfield cars, the gap is simply to big for a midfield car to gain a podium on merit and Perez simply is not that special to do it, were is the sense in him being able to beat the likes of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Vettel, even Bottas in car that's at least 1 second slower or even Albon?

The reality of the match up between the Hulk and Perez is that the Hulk out qualified Perez all 3 seasons although it was reasonably close every season.

Perez beat the Hulk 2-1 in the WDC, losing out in his first season with the team, with the Hulk being the incumbent driver.The telling factor in the last 2 seasons were the podiums that Perez achieved and not the consistency of results because the Hulk matched Perez in the head to head in both seasons meaning that in the races he finished as often in front of Perez as did Perez the other way around.

Hulkenberg moved to Force India from Sauber the same year Perez joined. Over their tenure as teammates there was about a 10 point difference in Perez's favour. Yes Hulk drove for Force India beforehand, but he hadn't shaped the 2014 development, particularly when it came after the nicest regulation change for quite a while. I don't think his prior team knowledge would have given him and substantial advantage. I rate both Hulk and Perez highly. I think there is a reasonable chance that both are at Vettel's level and would stand a chance of beating him.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:50 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.


What makes you think that? I know McLaren had the fourth fastest car but I'm not sure anything I saw makes me think it could achieve a podium on merit. Perez is a good driver but for him to be able to achieve a podium on merit in this year's McLaren, it would surely mean that Sainz and Norris are two of the worst drivers on the grid, which I think is far from the case.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:19 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.


What makes you think that? I know McLaren had the fourth fastest car but I'm not sure anything I saw makes me think it could achieve a podium on merit. Perez is a good driver but for him to be able to achieve a podium on merit in this year's McLaren, it would surely mean that Sainz and Norris are two of the worst drivers on the grid, which I think is far from the case.

I doubt that Hamilton would have put that McLaren - as improved as it has been - onto the podium this year, on merit alone.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:24 pm 
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Looking at the comments rather than the voting, Perez seems to be overrated ...


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:27 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.


What makes you think that? I know McLaren had the fourth fastest car but I'm not sure anything I saw makes me think it could achieve a podium on merit. Perez is a good driver but for him to be able to achieve a podium on merit in this year's McLaren, it would surely mean that Sainz and Norris are two of the worst drivers on the grid, which I think is far from the case.

I doubt that Hamilton would have put that McLaren - as improved as it has been - onto the podium this year, on merit alone.


Agreed.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:44 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
I doubt that Hamilton would have put that McLaren - as improved as it has been - onto the podium this year, on merit alone.

After a quick look through the races, I believe you would need a driver roughly 0.7 seconds faster than the current McLaren pairing to have taken a podium on merit.

Hamilton would probably have picked off the last of the top cars more often than the actual Macca drivers did, but that's about it.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:37 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.

There's no way that Perez could have achieved a podium this year in the McLaren on merit, there is a reason why F1 presently is called 2 tier F1 meaning it's not possible for a midfield car to obtain a podium on merit, even to finish in the top 6 on merit since Gasly got dropped from Red Bull.

Even Albon can start from the pit lane and beat all the midfield cars, the gap is simply to big for a midfield car to gain a podium on merit and Perez simply is not that special to do it, were is the sense in him being able to beat the likes of Hamilton, Verstappen, Leclerc, Vettel, even Bottas in car that's at least 1 second slower or even Albon?

The reality of the match up between the Hulk and Perez is that the Hulk out qualified Perez all 3 seasons although it was reasonably close every season.

Perez beat the Hulk 2-1 in the WDC, losing out in his first season with the team, with the Hulk being the incumbent driver.The telling factor in the last 2 seasons were the podiums that Perez achieved and not the consistency of results because the Hulk matched Perez in the head to head in both seasons meaning that in the races he finished as often in front of Perez as did Perez the other way around.

Hulkenberg moved to Force India from Sauber the same year Perez joined. Over their tenure as teammates there was about a 10 point difference in Perez's favour. Yes Hulk drove for Force India beforehand, but he hadn't shaped the 2014 development, particularly when it came after the nicest regulation change for quite a while. I don't think his prior team knowledge would have given him and substantial advantage. I rate both Hulk and Perez highly. I think there is a reasonable chance that both are at Vettel's level and would stand a chance of beating him.

Fair enough I saw someone make excuse for Perez that he got beat by the Hulk at Force India because it was his first year with the team and I took for granted that meant that the Hulk was already at the team so there's no excuse be made there then which very much narrows the gap between the two drivers when they were teammates.

As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:54 am 
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JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Hulk was only better than Perez in qualy & in the wet otherwise don't think Hulk was a match most of the times for Checo. The best race to compare these 2 is Bahrain 2014 where Checo overtook Hulk to take the podium. Their race was as fierce as Hamilton Vs. Rosberg's. Hulk has always been a driver where he rather be sure to earn points in the position where he is instead of dive down in any available gap to overtake the car ahead of him. Perez's driving style is very similar to Hamilton's & Verstappen's where they always try their best to overtake & take any possible gaps that may come their way.

I can bet any amount had Checo been in this year's McLaren, he would've achieved a podium on merit. The McLaren was actually that good this year. I've folowed Checo since 2014 & he was a beast in his strongest year 2012.


What makes you think that? I know McLaren had the fourth fastest car but I'm not sure anything I saw makes me think it could achieve a podium on merit. Perez is a good driver but for him to be able to achieve a podium on merit in this year's McLaren, it would surely mean that Sainz and Norris are two of the worst drivers on the grid, which I think is far from the case.


I said this based on Checo's tire management. If he can be kind on tires in a Racing Point, I'm sure he'd do better on a better chassis on which McLaren thrives. Merit would mean also opportunities coming his way & not by beating a Red Bull. Shouldn't have said on pure merit but he would be close to achieving one especially on his stronger tracks like Baku & Spa.

Am happy for Sainz & more so as he chose the right time to switch to McLaren. IMO, Checo is the strongest driver after the top 6 & a little below Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:10 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


When you put it that way it puts Ricciardo's ability into quite impressive perspective. What if he's pretty much on Lewis' level, aside from wet weather driving, and Verstappen is just some other kind of monster entirely? After all, Verstappen is crushing team-mates so severely that he's spawning conspiracy theorists - albeit I appreciate both Gasly and Albon have been presented with difficult scenarios by which such a huge gap could manifest.

I don't imagine Ocon will be beating Ricciardo next season.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:32 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


Furthermore, Ricciardo was considerably less experienced when he beat Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:58 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


Furthermore, Ricciardo was considerably less experienced when he beat Vettel.

Yea that is a point. I just feel that there was such a huge car change that year that it will have effectively been a new start for both of then and Ricciardo just adapted better. Vettel was good in his first year in Ferrari the next year. 2014 was just a bad year for him.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:49 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


Furthermore, Ricciardo was considerably less experienced when he beat Vettel.

Yea that is a point. I just feel that there was such a huge car change that year that it will have effectively been a new start for both of then and Ricciardo just adapted better. Vettel was good in his first year in Ferrari the next year. 2014 was just a bad year for him.


Maybe it was a bad year for vettel in 2014 but I (and probably a lot of others too) would back ricciardo to beat vettel if they were partnered again and I'd wager by about the same scores that he beat Hulk


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:20 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


Furthermore, Ricciardo was considerably less experienced when he beat Vettel.

Yea that is a point. I just feel that there was such a huge car change that year that it will have effectively been a new start for both of then and Ricciardo just adapted better. Vettel was good in his first year in Ferrari the next year. 2014 was just a bad year for him.


Maybe it was a bad year for vettel in 2014 but I (and probably a lot of others too) would back ricciardo to beat vettel if they were partnered again and I'd wager by about the same scores that he beat Hulk


I hadn't thought of it but Vettel's comparison with Hulkenberg via Ricciardo would put Vettel right in that midfield pack as using Hulkenberg we can compare him to Sainz and Perez. In fact next season we will be able to use cross team mate comparisons to compare Vettel to -

Leclerc
Raikkonen
Giovinazzi
Grosjean
Magnussen
Ricciardo
Kvyat
Verstappen
Hulkenberg
Perez
Sainz
Ocon
Stroll
Norris
Hamilton
Bottas
Albon
Gasly

Everyone apart from the rookies and George Russell.

And we can get to Russell Vettel - Webber - Heidfeld - Kubica - Russell, but I don't count 2019 Kubica.

I don't know if a driver being that connected is usual for an experienced driver or quite unique.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
And we can get to Russell Vettel - Webber - Heidfeld - Kubica - Russell, but I don't count 2019 Kubica.

Yeah, I have a feeling that if you do that the data will say Russell is a god among men! :o

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.


Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 10:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:44 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


Furthermore, Ricciardo was considerably less experienced when he beat Vettel.

Yea that is a point. I just feel that there was such a huge car change that year that it will have effectively been a new start for both of then and Ricciardo just adapted better. Vettel was good in his first year in Ferrari the next year. 2014 was just a bad year for him.


Just a bad year like 2016, 2018, 2019 (and some considerable parts of 2017 as well) ...

I really think the "just a bad year" story is not convincing at all.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.


Also vettel 2011, 2012 and 2013 was a lot better with the blown diffusers than since that grip has gone


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.

Yes I'm aware of that but single season comparisons are not always ideal, from these you follow the crumbs and find Hamilton is close to 3 tenths quicker than Vettel, I kind of don't believe that and it leads back to the 2014 season being a slight anomaly.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:11 am 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As for the comparison with Vettel I'm not so sure about that.

Well, Ricciardo came into Vettel's team and beat him 11-7 in qualifying and 11-3 in the races. He came into Hulkenberg's team and beat him 13-8 in qualifying and 11-4 in races. On the face of it, Hulk put up at least as good of a fight as Vettel did.


When you put it that way it puts Ricciardo's ability into quite impressive perspective. What if he's pretty much on Lewis' level, aside from wet weather driving, and Verstappen is just some other kind of monster entirely? After all, Verstappen is crushing team-mates so severely that he's spawning conspiracy theorists - albeit I appreciate both Gasly and Albon have been presented with difficult scenarios by which such a huge gap could manifest.

I don't imagine Ocon will be beating Ricciardo next season.

For Ricciardo to be at Hamilton's level he needed to beat the Hulk by about 2 tenths, he beat him by 1 tenth, I would put Ocon round about at the Hulk's level so let's see.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.


:thumbup: he's obviously up and down. His battle with Leclerc next year could be fascinating.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.

Are you assuming Kimi's own performance hasn't fluctuated? Knowing how sensitive he is to the characteristics of the car the 2016 one may have suited him better?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:22 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Well i've just realised i'm an idiot :lol: Obviously if everyone can get to Vettel then everyone can be compared to each other at least via Vettel. So using the team mate comparison we can get to everyone on the 2020 grid at the very least via Vettel if not by a more direct route.

The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.

Are you assuming Kimi's own performance hasn't fluctuated? Knowing how sensitive he is to the characteristics of the car the 2016 one may have suited him better?

I was more or less assuming that, which indeed could be wrong. Vettel also wasn't very consistent season to season against Webber, however.

In fact, both Vettel and Raikkonen are pretty sensitive to car characteristics, so any comparison involving either of them may be doomed to failure. :-P

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:38 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The problem is that I think Vettel is one of the least consistent drivers on the grid, with large swings in performance season by season against the same teammates (waxing Kimi in 2015, barely beating him in 2016, waxing him again in 2017) without regulation changes to explain them.

Was there a big difference in speed between 2015 and 2016?

No, that was 2016-2017. The 2016 cars were just incremental improvements on the 2015 cars.

Unless you mean Vettel's speed, in which case I would say yes. He out-qualified Kimi 15-4 in 2015, and lost 8-13 in 2016. That's a huge difference.

Are you assuming Kimi's own performance hasn't fluctuated? Knowing how sensitive he is to the characteristics of the car the 2016 one may have suited him better?

I was more or less assuming that, which indeed could be wrong. Vettel also wasn't very consistent season to season against Webber, however.

In fact, both Vettel and Raikkonen are pretty sensitive to car characteristics, so any comparison involving either of them may be doomed to failure. :-P


I would disagree about Kimi being overly sensitive. He's had quite a few team mates and generally his performance against them is pretty static. Vettel really being the exception to that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:26 pm 
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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... BNv4Q.html

How the team bosses voted the top10.
POSITION DRIVER SCORE
1 Lewis Hamilton 169
2 Max Verstappen 146
3 Charles Leclerc 124
4 Valtteri Bottas 68
5 Sebastian Vettel 58
6 Alexander Albon 57
7 Carlos Sainz 55
8 Daniel Ricciardo 49
9 George Russell 41
10 Lando Norris 38

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:16 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.revealed-f1s-team-bosses-choose-their-top-10-drivers-of-2019.3TENpziJ3cwIN9HBRBNv4Q.html

How the team bosses voted the top10.
POSITION DRIVER SCORE
1 Lewis Hamilton 169
2 Max Verstappen 146
3 Charles Leclerc 124
4 Valtteri Bottas 68
5 Sebastian Vettel 58
6 Alexander Albon 57
7 Carlos Sainz 55
8 Daniel Ricciardo 49
9 George Russell 41
10 Lando Norris 38

Thanks, this reminded me to create a poll for ranking the 2019 season performances:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15801


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